The Biden era: The Establishment Strikes Back
The Biden era: The Establishment Strikes Back
Author |
Message |
Libs
Sbil
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:38 pm Posts: 48678 Location: Arlington, VA
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Also, Twitter is a private media company. They can do whatever they want. It is not a fundamental First Amendment right that someone be allowed to tweet.
Conservatives outraged by their decision should remember the bakery that refused to bake a gay wedding cake and how they argued that was totally kosher and allowable. Fundamentally, it's the same concept.
|
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:04 pm |
|
 |
Corpse
Don't Dream It, Be It
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:45 pm Posts: 37162 Location: The Graveyard
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Excel wrote: FBI is investigating as an inside job, clearly someone are about to get in huge trouble. The case is building more and more up to this as a possibility. Not jumping on it without evidence, of course, as no one should with assumptions/conspiracies, but it's heading in that direction. And not just from all the videos of the Capitol police stepping aside, opening gates, or taking selfies (...), but also: -Clyburn's actual office was untouched, but the office he was supposed to be in that day was ransacked. Coincidence, perhaps, but pretty unusual. -It took the Pentagon over an hour (90 minutes at least) to approve Larry Hogan's (Maryland Gov.) request to deploy the national guard to the capitol building. -The incredibly delayed response to even begin moving people away from the capitol building. It took around four hours, presumably from the lack of direction and approvals occurring, for them to begin the process. -Trump calling GOP Senators during (not before) the attack as they were being evacuated, continuing to pressure them into objecting the electoral results. Not to mention the reports that Pence was the one who made the call to activate the national guard, not Trump himself (again, likely attributing to the ridiculous delayed response). -Sergeant at Arms and the Capitol Police Chief both resigning a day later. They made up two of the three members of the Capitol Police Board. This was to be expected of course, but not even attempting to argue their case is odd. There's probably some more questionable, at best, events, but these are some big ones. Again, not jumping aboard the conspiracy train like the loonies, but clearly they'll be a lot of investigations into this insurrection.
_________________Japan Box Office “Gods are great ... but the heart is greater. For it is from our hearts they come, and to our hearts they shall return.” “We were like gods at the dawning of the world, & our joy was so bright we could see nothing else but the other.” “There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.” “You have to pretend you get an endgame. You have to carry on like you will; otherwise, you can't carry on at all.” "Paper is dead without words / Ink idle without a poem / All the world dead without stories."
|
Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:05 pm |
|
 |
zwackerm
Hold the door!
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:26 pm Posts: 21595 Location: West Chester, Pennsylvania
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Libs wrote: Also, Twitter is a private media company. They can do whatever they want. It is not a fundamental First Amendment right that someone be allowed to tweet.
Conservatives outraged by their decision should remember the bakery that refused to bake a gay wedding cake and how they argued that was totally kosher and allowable. Fundamentally, it's the same concept. It is the same concept, and Twitter has the right to do it. However, being banned by one of the biggest companies in the world is a little different than being banned by a mom and pop shop.
|
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:25 pm |
|
 |
Libs
Sbil
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:38 pm Posts: 48678 Location: Arlington, VA
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
zwackerm wrote: Libs wrote: Also, Twitter is a private media company. They can do whatever they want. It is not a fundamental First Amendment right that someone be allowed to tweet.
Conservatives outraged by their decision should remember the bakery that refused to bake a gay wedding cake and how they argued that was totally kosher and allowable. Fundamentally, it's the same concept. It is the same concept, and Twitter has the right to do it. However, being banned by one of the biggest companies in the world is a little different than being banned by a mom and pop shop. Very true! I think we can agree there were extenuating circumstances here though. I certainly don’t agree with anyone getting banned from Twitter or other social media just because they express conservative viewpoints. Opposing viewpoints are necessary for discourse and functioning societies. I am, however, in full support of Trump getting banned permanently. Twitter has been the most direct and widespread source of his violent rhetoric, as well as the media continually reporting on his tweets. Anyone that actively works to stoke and encourage violent behavior should not have an outlet to do so anymore.
|
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:42 pm |
|
 |
Shack
Devil's Advocate
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am Posts: 40593
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
It's more the bigger picture of one government party, corporate america, the media and the big tech giants all in an effective alliance that is scary going forward. I do think it's ok to let Twitter commit seppuku though, while Parler gets a lot of headlines, Gab is in a great position to make a run at twitter now as they have been around longer and apparently have been preparing years for people trying to deplatform them from the internet such as having their own servers. Parler's design also sucks ass while Gab's is very similar to twitter.
_________________Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227
|
Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:55 pm |
|
 |
Corpse
Don't Dream It, Be It
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:45 pm Posts: 37162 Location: The Graveyard
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
The traitors (featured heavily on the internet and media outlets) who are being arrested for invading the capitol telling authorities they were there at the "request of the President" is amazing. Horribly awful, of course, since it confirms they were motivated by Trump's words, but amazing for the case to impeach him and prevent him from running for office again (which includes stripping him of his post-Presidential privileges too).
_________________Japan Box Office “Gods are great ... but the heart is greater. For it is from our hearts they come, and to our hearts they shall return.” “We were like gods at the dawning of the world, & our joy was so bright we could see nothing else but the other.” “There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.” “You have to pretend you get an endgame. You have to carry on like you will; otherwise, you can't carry on at all.” "Paper is dead without words / Ink idle without a poem / All the world dead without stories."
|
Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:22 pm |
|
 |
zwackerm
Hold the door!
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:26 pm Posts: 21595 Location: West Chester, Pennsylvania
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Libs wrote: zwackerm wrote: Libs wrote: Also, Twitter is a private media company. They can do whatever they want. It is not a fundamental First Amendment right that someone be allowed to tweet.
Conservatives outraged by their decision should remember the bakery that refused to bake a gay wedding cake and how they argued that was totally kosher and allowable. Fundamentally, it's the same concept. It is the same concept, and Twitter has the right to do it. However, being banned by one of the biggest companies in the world is a little different than being banned by a mom and pop shop. Very true! I think we can agree there were extenuating circumstances here though. I certainly don’t agree with anyone getting banned from Twitter or other social media just because they express conservative viewpoints. Opposing viewpoints are necessary for discourse and functioning societies. I am, however, in full support of Trump getting banned permanently. Twitter has been the most direct and widespread source of his violent rhetoric, as well as the media continually reporting on his tweets. Anyone that actively works to stoke and encourage violent behavior should not have an outlet to do so anymore. Yeah, Trumps tweets were mainly good for a laugh, but they are 100% unnecessary to our countries well being.
|
Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:35 pm |
|
 |
Darth Indiana Bond
007
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:43 pm Posts: 11623 Location: Wouldn't you like to know
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Parlor now is starting to censor their posts from the Trump brass. They just took down Lin Wood’s post calling for Pence’s execution.
_________________
|
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:03 am |
|
 |
Excel
Superfreak
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:54 am Posts: 22213 Location: Places
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Corpse wrote: The traitors (featured heavily on the internet and media outlets) who are being arrested for invading the capitol telling authorities they were there at the "request of the President" is amazing. Horribly awful, of course, since it confirms they were motivated by Trump's words, but amazing for the case to impeach him and prevent him from running for office again (which includes stripping him of his post-Presidential privileges too). I came here to post the exact same thing. Dunning Kruger to the max. MAGA crowd is all at step 1 and do not realize it.  
_________________Ari Emmanuel wrote: I'd rather marry lindsay Lohan than represent Mel Gibson.
|
Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:36 am |
|
 |
Alex Y.
Top Poster
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:47 pm Posts: 5824
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
|
Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:09 pm |
|
 |
Alex Y.
Top Poster
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:47 pm Posts: 5824
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
RegardingMister Ecks, that applies to politicians in general. You really believe Biden or Harris believe half the words that come out of their mouths? For Trump, I think they more he publicly says stuff tthe more he actually convinced himself to believe it, even if previously he was a Democrat.
Regarding Excel’s image:
it used to be:
People are liberal when they are young (media influence, teachers/professors, peer influence, not making much money yet). Then as they grow older they become more conservative, gain more wealth and life experience, get married, start having children. They have lived through many generations where they see how cities under decades of Democrat rule become worse and had the worst riots and looting n 2020, while Republican areas are safer areas to raise children . Some may even not change their beliefs at all as they grow at all as they grow older, eg if they have the exact same beliefs as Joe Biden back in 1994, suddenly their same beliefs is now considered conservative.
The new paradigm:
US and its democracy used to be the world superpower influencing everywhere to have fair democracies. But China-style communism (not true communism because rich elites get to stay rich and powerful) with mass censorship and no fair elections is about to take over. Trump supporters are deluded to believe there’s a chance to prevent this inevitable, with Trump being their last fighting chance because, with all his faults, there isn’t really anyone else. But if it is a losing cause anyway, a knowledgeable person should adapt to the new world order and give up any further hope of democracy and freedom of speech,
|
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:09 pm |
|
 |
Shack
Devil's Advocate
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am Posts: 40593
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
The reason there is so much going on, rushed attempt at impeachment, big tech conservative purge is Trump didn't really bend the knee, his last tweets left the door open to be talking about himself.. If he wanted it to be over and tell his supporters it's done he would have left no doubt. He is in their heads not knowing his next move.
_________________Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227
|
Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:26 pm |
|
 |
Excel
Superfreak
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:54 am Posts: 22213 Location: Places
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Alex Y. wrote: The new paradigm:
US and its democracy used to be the world superpower influencing everywhere to have fair democracies. But China-style communism (not true communism because rich elites get to stay rich and powerful) with mass censorship and no fair elections is about to take over. Trump supporters are deluded to believe there’s a chance to prevent this inevitable, with Trump being their last fighting chance because, with all his faults, there isn’t really anyone else. But if it is a losing cause anyway, a knowledgeable person should adapt to the new world order and give up any further hope of democracy and freedom of speech, Except unlike China, there is a meteoric fuck ton of opportunity for social and economic mobility in the US. This dynamic remains the sole thing DT actually got right, though. Many in middle America, uneducated America, rural white America, have not benefited from economic gains over the past 3 decades where the growth has primarily been in urban areas & their surrounding affluent suburbs. The people who got factory or agricultural industry skills only to find these industries die off. The general idea of "letting the market take of the problem" does not change the fact that there are no decent jobs for these people, there is not anyone to buy their home, etc. And for whatever reason, Washington's attention was elsewhere. Too many Liberals - who have taught themselves to view every-fucking-thing through "racial" lens - look at these people and make the generalized statement of "Oh, well, they're mostly white, therefore they had white privilege and I am not all that worried about them". The belief that opportunity exists for oneself is essential to a happy life and lack of this opportunity will spur anger without question - be it within underserved "ghettos" or in forgotten rural towns- and that anger is what Trump tapped into mores than anything. That is really all that the MAGA movement is. These people think DT is the only person really speaking to them. Of course, DT knows a sucker one he sees one and identified all of them as such, endlessly lied to them with complete conviction for years, horribly selling them impossible dreams and false hopes but creating intense personal loyalty in the process because for a split second, they felt the ray of hope that he was untruthfully feeding them. The best thing that Biden could to them would be to talk to them directly in his public statements, not shame them for feeling frustration, and say I intend to make a difference for you and ask that you give me the chance.
_________________Ari Emmanuel wrote: I'd rather marry lindsay Lohan than represent Mel Gibson.
|
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:26 pm |
|
 |
Mister Ecks
New Server, Same X
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:07 pm Posts: 28301 Location: ... siiiigh...
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Alex Y. wrote: RegardingMister Ecks, that applies to politicians in general. You really believe Biden or Harris believe half the words that come out of their mouths? For Trump, I think they more he publicly says stuff tthe more he actually convinced himself to believe it, even if previously he was a Democrat. Totally fair and valid point. "Whataboutism" aside, Biden and Harris aren't idolized in the way Trump is. He's being heralded by his base as this master chess player, and there is nothing to back that up.
_________________ Ecks Factor: Cancelled too soon
|
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:45 pm |
|
 |
Excel
Superfreak
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:54 am Posts: 22213 Location: Places
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Mister Ecks wrote: Alex Y. wrote: RegardingMister Ecks, that applies to politicians in general. You really believe Biden or Harris believe half the words that come out of their mouths? For Trump, I think they more he publicly says stuff tthe more he actually convinced himself to believe it, even if previously he was a Democrat. Totally fair and valid point. "Whataboutism" aside, Biden and Harris aren't idolized in the way Trump is. He's being heralded by his base as this master chess player, and there is nothing to back that up. DT 2016 was an expert with brand and media manipulation who benefited from overconfident Democrats.
_________________Ari Emmanuel wrote: I'd rather marry lindsay Lohan than represent Mel Gibson.
|
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:08 pm |
|
 |
Alex Y.
Top Poster
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:47 pm Posts: 5824
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Mister Ecks wrote: Alex Y. wrote: RegardingMister Ecks, that applies to politicians in general. You really believe Biden or Harris believe half the words that come out of their mouths? For Trump, I think they more he publicly says stuff tthe more he actually convinced himself to believe it, even if previously he was a Democrat. Totally fair and valid point. "Whataboutism" aside, Biden and Harris aren't idolized in the way Trump is. He's being heralded by his base as this master chess player, and there is nothing to back that up. We'll find out more in coming days if Shack's claims of there being a master plan comes true. Perhaps there really was a secret operation to steal Nancy Pelosi's laptop where the operatives were secretly blending in with the Trump supporters and Antifa. Perhaps Texas will secede from the Union and Trump will be its first president. But if the war cannot be won, I don't have complete faith that Trump won't necessarily take a deal and switch sides as controlled opposition. I believe he hasn't done so yet currently, as Pompeo's action yesterday in regards to lifting restrictions from Taiwan seems like a message from Trump that he is holding out until he is offered a better deal (Or he truly is all in on the master plan that Shack is alluding to.)
|
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:36 pm |
|
 |
Jack Sparrow
KJ's Leading Idiot
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:15 pm Posts: 36949
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
First Shack now Alex lol
|
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:54 pm |
|
 |
Shack
Devil's Advocate
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am Posts: 40593
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Excel wrote: I came here to post the exact same thing. Dunning Kruger to the max. MAGA crowd is all at step 1 and do not realize it.
Well from our perspective a lot of the left is step 1 and don't realize it
_________________Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227
|
Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:19 am |
|
 |
Shack
Devil's Advocate
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am Posts: 40593
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Excel wrote: Alex Y. wrote: The new paradigm:
US and its democracy used to be the world superpower influencing everywhere to have fair democracies. But China-style communism (not true communism because rich elites get to stay rich and powerful) with mass censorship and no fair elections is about to take over. Trump supporters are deluded to believe there’s a chance to prevent this inevitable, with Trump being their last fighting chance because, with all his faults, there isn’t really anyone else. But if it is a losing cause anyway, a knowledgeable person should adapt to the new world order and give up any further hope of democracy and freedom of speech, Except unlike China, there is a meteoric fuck ton of opportunity for social and economic mobility in the US. This dynamic remains the sole thing DT actually got right, though. Many in middle America, uneducated America, rural white America, have not benefited from economic gains over the past 3 decades where the growth has primarily been in urban areas & their surrounding affluent suburbs. The people who got factory or agricultural industry skills only to find these industries die off. The general idea of "letting the market take of the problem" does not change the fact that there are no decent jobs for these people, there is not anyone to buy their home, etc. And for whatever reason, Washington's attention was elsewhere. Too many Liberals - who have taught themselves to view every-fucking-thing through "racial" lens - look at these people and make the generalized statement of "Oh, well, they're mostly white, therefore they had white privilege and I am not all that worried about them". The belief that opportunity exists for oneself is essential to a happy life and lack of this opportunity will spur anger without question - be it within underserved "ghettos" or in forgotten rural towns- and that anger is what Trump tapped into mores than anything. That is really all that the MAGA movement is. These people think DT is the only person really speaking to them. Of course, DT knows a sucker one he sees one and identified all of them as such, endlessly lied to them with complete conviction for years, horribly selling them impossible dreams and false hopes but creating intense personal loyalty in the process because for a split second, they felt the ray of hope that he was untruthfully feeding them. The best thing that Biden could to them would be to talk to them directly in his public statements, not shame them for feeling frustration, and say I intend to make a difference for you and ask that you give me the chance. The backlash to left wing culture is also part of it. Identity politics with race and gender went to another level in Obama's presidency and many on the right simply don't want to judge people by what their skin color is or what gender they are. The radical left has a very hard to take combination of asking society to change their views and then shaming and attacking them if they don't do it, they have no sense of boundaries. This scares people on the right who already gave up many institutions like schools and science as not the hill to die on. I think Trump also benefited a ton from being the pro-Merica guy. There are many young people who are obviously not fans of the USA's history or what it stands for. They think people should be ashamed of their past due to slavery, they are far left who obviously don't love the capitalism the US is known for, they think it's wroth sacrificing freedom and liberty to suppress dangerous information or to make it so people aren't allowed to work or go mask-less in a pandemic. So as a result Trump benefitted from that threat to american patriotism by bringing back nationalism and now is the only side that uses the American flags and USA chants really, and all his brashness that pisses so many people off also symbolizes free speech. In general the way the left is acting is frightening and insane to many people in Trump's base. With the rest of the GOP being spineless cowards they're in desperate need of someone who can fight back against them and Trump is a fighter.
_________________Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227
|
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:19 am |
|
 |
Shack
Devil's Advocate
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am Posts: 40593
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Sounds like Amazon, Apple and Google aren't just dropping Parler, but they're trying to scare other companies from working with them. Seems like they could basically eliminate anyone they want using this power.
_________________Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227
|
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:48 am |
|
 |
Corpse
Don't Dream It, Be It
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:45 pm Posts: 37162 Location: The Graveyard
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
All the terrorists being arrested in airports this past week:
_________________Japan Box Office “Gods are great ... but the heart is greater. For it is from our hearts they come, and to our hearts they shall return.” “We were like gods at the dawning of the world, & our joy was so bright we could see nothing else but the other.” “There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.” “You have to pretend you get an endgame. You have to carry on like you will; otherwise, you can't carry on at all.” "Paper is dead without words / Ink idle without a poem / All the world dead without stories."
|
Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:25 pm |
|
 |
Excel
Superfreak
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:54 am Posts: 22213 Location: Places
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Ultra right-wing military nut & GOAT football coach Bill Belichick says he is not going to the WH to accept Medal of Freedom & that the success of social justice initiatives in 2020 has been much more rewarding. 
_________________Ari Emmanuel wrote: I'd rather marry lindsay Lohan than represent Mel Gibson.
|
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:38 pm |
|
 |
Darth Indiana Bond
007
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:43 pm Posts: 11623 Location: Wouldn't you like to know
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Guess he’s a dirty lib now in our black and white, us vs them political atmosphere
_________________
|
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:46 pm |
|
 |
Corpse
Don't Dream It, Be It
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:45 pm Posts: 37162 Location: The Graveyard
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
A lot of companies have come out in recent days saying they're withhold and suspend all donations (via their associated PACs) to the 147 Congress members (including the 8 Senators) that voted to overturn the election results last Wednesday.
They include:
Airbnb American Express AT&T BlackRock Blue Cross Blue Shield Boston Scientific Charles Schwab Citibank Coca-Cola Commerce Bancshares Deloitte Dow Inc. Facebook Goldman Sachs H&R Block Hallmark (they're even requesting refunds) Hilton Hotels ICSC J.P. Morgan Marriott International Mastercard Microsoft UPS Verizon Visa
The majority have donated more heavily towards Republicans.
And these are just the companies that have issued statements, and there could be more that I didn't catch. And in addition to all of them, many others are still considering measures, including: Amgen, Bank of America, Bayer, Berkshire Hathaway Energy CVS, Delta, Exxon Mobile, FedEx, Ford, Procter & Gamble, T-Mobile/Sprint, Target, Walmart.
I'm sure more are to come.
_________________Japan Box Office “Gods are great ... but the heart is greater. For it is from our hearts they come, and to our hearts they shall return.” “We were like gods at the dawning of the world, & our joy was so bright we could see nothing else but the other.” “There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.” “You have to pretend you get an endgame. You have to carry on like you will; otherwise, you can't carry on at all.” "Paper is dead without words / Ink idle without a poem / All the world dead without stories."
|
Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:58 am |
|
 |
Rev
Romosexual!
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:06 am Posts: 32629 Location: the last free city
|
 Re: Democracy 2020 (President-elect Joseph R Biden Jr.)
Corpse wrote: All the terrorists being arrested in airports this past week:
LOCK THOSE TERRORIST ALL UP!!!!
_________________ Is it 2028 yet?
|
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:07 pm |
|
|
Who is online |
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 63 guests |
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
|
|