this was so terrible...would give it a D- but have to go with an F here.

I think part of the reason this is being cut slack by many here is it doesn't follow a beloved original (Spider Man 3) or butcher a beloved comic plotline (X-Men the last stand). If man of steel were super beloved, people wouldn't be so lenient with this.

Look at the grades. It is not being cut much slack.

It's just not a bad movie outside of editing issues.

Character arcs and motivation are all there for those who choose to see them. Of course, if one is preordained to hate a movie...

They absolutely are not. It makes zero sense why Lex wants Batman and Superman to fight, nor why they hate each other off the bat (aside from that bullshit 9/11 allegory prologue for Bruce, which was tasteless as hell).

Movie's still amazing second time around.

LL has a god complex and therefore loathes Supes.



CK knows Bats is crossing the line. Paranoid BW sees Supes as Bane on roids.

I can see where people can see the editing is off because it hasn't really been done in a movie like this before but since the movie pretty much plays out like a comic book page by page on screen, the edits make sense as comic books don't necessarily go linear from start to finish.

Even if that were true, these are two DIFFERENT mediums. What works in a comic book does NOT necessarily work on film. It sure as fuck does not work here.

God this movie is such a ghastly piece of shit. It's almost hilarious how bad it turned out.

There's a difference between good stylish editing and simply bad editing which fucks up the film's pace and momentum, and this film definitely has the latter. In fact, the bad editing could probably be attributed to an overstuffed narrative and an insistence to set up the Justice League as lazily as possible.
But the editing is not the only flaw of this film. The motivations and character arcs within this film are very sketchily drawn and hardly convincing. I was entertained by the film, but it's overall problematic on a number of levels.

Who cut slack? I hope you are not referring to Excel here.

I don't want to defend this movie but still Lex had problems with Supes powers from the get-go as shown in the movie. We all knew that he didn't want kryptonite for safe keeping. He manipulates Batman (or completely fails to do so IMO) because he sees a superhero sort of power in him and thinks he can take over Supes.

Batman's other motivation which I have mentioned a number of times is thinly written? are those bounced checks that Lex sends him (on behalf of Wallace) along with the wild messages coupled with the bombing.

What scene other than one dream sequence and the video watching does setup JL? Stealing Lex's drive had other motivation that connects to the main story.

I think the characters are finely drawn they are just so rushed you don't get warm enough before the other sequence starts. Snyder is unable to convince even a single arc with the way he puts out the film.

After 3 viewings, outside of the obnoxious knightmare/Flash scene, and minor editing issues in the beginning...

I don't see what separates this from Batman Begins quality wise, like, at all. Except the fight scenes are 100x better here. BB had a quaisi slow act 1 and very slow act 2 followed by a night of non stop action in act 3.

I am tempted to think geek fanboys and geek critics choose to look the other way because they knew Nolan was 'one of them' whereas with Snyder...he is a glorified special effects supervisor so they look extra hard for issues.

Another reason he has to go, fair or not.

excel is crazy for sure. difference between BB and BvS is that it had a great story to narrate. Plus nolan's directorial touches were fantastic. What a finish it had with the joker card and Before that Batman's reveal with Rachel.

I hope Snyder is fired soon from JL or he is gonna destroy DCEU for sure.

The story in this movie makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. As I said previously, the whole thing is baffling on a pure structural level.

Batman Begins was developed with far more grace and nuance, it was more assured in its themes and approach, the actors all know exactly what they're doing with their characters, and although there are some instances in which characters act simply because the script needs them to do so at that particular moment, their motivations and personalities still feel like they are coming from a far more natural and organic place than anything in BvS. It's not just a matter of pacing that clearly distinguishes one from the other (and I would argue that Batman Begins is paced much more swiftly and consistently than BvS); it's also the depth with which they develop what makes Bruce/Batman tick within the parameters of each particular universe.

Let's put it this way: Batman Begins spends virtually its entire first act illustrating Bruce Wayne's psyche, and it also clearly shows why he feels that becoming Batman is necessary and why he refuses to directly kill anyone. On the other hand, the Batman in BvS is sketched so vaguely that I don't think most audiences who aren't familiar with The Dark Knight Returns will immediately realize that this Batman is coming out of self-imposed retirement unless they just happen to get the quick throwaway lines that pay lip service to it. Furthermore, his reasoning for killing Superman feels woefully underdeveloped. Begins dove into the underlying philosophy that drove Batman; this one just implies that Bruce thinks that Supes is a menace because of the fight with Zod and the bizarre visions he gets.

And no, this opinion has nothing to do with my opinions of Nolan or Snyder. I went into Batman Begins having never seen any of Nolan's other work, and I happen to think that Snyder's Watchmen is massively underrated. It's possible for viewers to dislike this movie with no underhanded, hypocritical agenda.

I loved Watchmen. It was clearly a fluke.

Excel saw it three times and thinks that BvS is equal to BB....

I am one of the people saying BvS isn't good but it doesn't justify such huge backlash but still this is NO WAY close to BB.

Most people wouldn't go public about their taste being this poor, sir.

Honestly, I might slightly prefer this to The Dark Knight Rises. But not Batman Begins or The Dark Knight.

My favorites, though, remain the Returns (1992 and 2006).

I said aside from a few select things.

But come on. I think the following point is true:

People wanted to like BB before. People wanted to hate BVS beforehand. I think that makes up for ~80% of the difference. The Bruce Wayne toast scene, for example, is cringe worthy. Yet everybody thought it was because Nolan/Bale are geek gods. If that were Snyder/Affleck, I have no doubt people would dislike it.

I do that sadly makes a lot of people look the other way on this one.

Excel, if this was 1983, you'd be saying that outside of one or two small things, you don't think SUPERMAN III is that far-off quality-wise from SUPERMAN.

Yes, there were people who hated Man of Steel who ended up hating BvS as well (and probably walked into it with low expectations), but there were at least as many people who adored Man of Steel and were fully prepared to sing BvS's praises as loudly as possible from the minute it was announced, so this defense collapses on itself.