If you want to move a player to a different position, I would want that player to be young.

Beckett has a career .585 win percentage (not factoring his rookie year where he had four starts, and this year with two starts). For comparison the hall of fame win percentage leaders range from .717 to .602.

So when you factor in the averages of every other pitcher in baseball, that probably puts Beckett with his .585 into the "above average" category.

Your assumption that a .600 winning percentage is "not great" is fucking absurd.



Hitting a timely home run occasionally does not turn someone even into an average player.

And hitting 30? What are are you trying to say? 30 home runs? Hitting third in the lineup? Getting 30 hits?

On Beckett, those numbers and Beckett's overall pitching sure wouldn't be enough in an usual year to get the Red Sox back in a race when he came back from injury last year.

and now Beckett is what, the #4 starter on the Red Sox..

First you are the jerk...as why did you bring Crawford into this...THE BIG QUESTION IS YOUK AND HOW HE HANDLES THIS YEAR, BEING A FULL-TIME PLAYER.....AS IF THEY KEPT BELTE, THEY COULD BE USING GONZALEZ AND BELTE TO FILLING IN WITH YOUK.

AND MY POINT ON BELTE WAS MAINLY THAT HIS YEAR WAS REALLY GREAT LAST YEAR, ALSPO COVERING FOR THE HURT PLAYERS...AS MOST WERE SURPRISED BY HIS YEAR!

and on Ells...who knows if that got his hurt ..but it was a stupid team decision not playing him in CF...and I said that before he got hurt.....

and to both of you and Dippy, playing a young player out of position makes a big difference....first every postion has the ball coming off the bat a different way, a different slice....and who knows it he gets the same jump...or if he dives the same way he is used too....

BUT ANYWAY FORGETTING ABOUT THE INJURY, STILL SAY, IT WAS STUPID TAKING HIM OUT OF POSITION.

Because he was coming off an injury. If he was completely healthy and without an injury for a year or two, then chances are he would've been a bigger help. What hurt even more last year was having ONE THIRD of the lineup out for the last half of his starts.



Yes because the other three have proven to the manager that they're better than him. That doesn't mean Beckett has become awful. That just means the Red Sox rotation is stacked with good pitching, even though they haven't pitched well so far this season (two exceptions coming in the Cleveland series - Lester's 1-0 no decision and Beckett's 3-1 loss). If we're making assumptions based on the first eight games of the season, it's kind of ironic for your argument that Beckett is actually the second best pitcher on the team.

how many great years has Beckett had in his career > http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=277417

2 - 2007 and 2009

and maybe 2006 but that is ruined by a 5+ ERA

anyway, lifetime record of 112-75 for a winning % of .598 but take away his 1 great year of 20-7 and now it is 92-68 for .575

so in most years Beckett wins about 3 more games than he losses 3*8=24 for his other 8 years outside of 1 year.

****

Now lets look at some other pitchers...

CC > 157-88 for .64 %
Andy Petitte > 240-138 for .63 %

so I think Becketts sub .60 or .598 has to be improved for him to be considered with others....but still on a yearly basis, Beckett hasn't been dependable...

I called you a moron. Not a jerk. And based on the popular opinion of the forum members and the opinions you've brought to the forum, I'm not being a jerk. I'm stating a fact.



Because he's a new acquisition to the lineup to help fill in the void of losing Beltre.



No it's not. You know Youkilis spent a couple of years playing third base before they got Lowell, right? He's played 226 games at third base in his career. It's not like he's never played the position before.



His year was not enough to cover the loss of Ellsbury (and his 70 stolen bases), Pedroia (And his MVP year of 2009...by the way, in 75 games in 2010 he hit 12 homers and drove home 41, compared to 15 homers and 75 RBI's in 2009. He was on pace to hit at least 24 home runs and drive home 82), and Youkilis (who would've ended the year with 30 home runs and close to 100 RBI's).

Beltre was good last year, but he didn't hit 54 home runs, drive in 184 RBI's and have 70 stolen bases. And he didn't (along with every other player in MLB history) play in three positions at the same time in one game.



Uh, he dove. He left the game hurt. A day later a doctor confirmed he broke his ribs. That's how he got hurt.



It had nothing to do with his injury.



Yeah, maybe if that player is adjusting from playing first base and is now a left fielder (something Youkilis has done), but moving from center field to left field? No. The ball still plays the same way in the outfield when it's hit in your direction. Whether or not a player got a good jump that might effect his dive has nothing to do with where he's playing. It has everything to do with the player's reaction time to that one hit.

If Ellsbury had played the infield and then moved into the outfield, you might have an argument since infielders would have to adjust to constantly playing balls that are hit in the air and not on a line, in the dirt, etc. That didn't happen though.



Based on what, his full year in left field?

Except you're the only one who is placing him in the same company as CC Sabathia and Andy Pettite. You do realize that most pitchers in baseball, if they are that good consistently, are the number one starter on most teams. Beckett is number four in the rotation. Remember how you pointed that out? If you're going to compare anyone on the Red Sox to those two, it's Lester. Beckett hasn't been the first starter in four years.

per you > He's played 226 games at third base in his career >>>well, that is much different than being responsible and playing 150 games there in 1 year....

****

and try adding in all the stats of the other replacement players....

like Bill Hall, Nava, McDonald, Kalish, etc.....

and I forgot that the Red Sox always had Tim Wakefield as a starter in every past year...so Wakefield is another big reason that 2010 sucked...and those regular starters, started about 155 games in 2010....

He is #4 this year...but I bet he hasn't been #4 for years....

Just Checked, Beckett started Game #1 in 2010!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wait, you CHECKED something? Highly doubtful!

Being a f'ing waste/post whore again ... As like always your post are worthless.

And to LOL at both of you, I check to prove him wrong...just like I do when proving Others wrong.

Wonder how Red Sox fans feel now that it is seen Manny can't get off the juice...and he was the main/major reasons for their only 2 WS Championships since 1918...or they would still be looking for their 1st WS in 90 years......

No it's not. Not at all. It's the equivalent of playing a season and a half's worth at third base. I think he knows what the hell he's doing over there.



Bill Hall - .247 18HR 46 RBI (96 games started in 5 different positions)
Daniel Nava - .242 1HR 26RBI (44 games started)
Darnell McDonald - .270 9HR 36RBI (50 games started)
Ryan Kalish - .252 4HR 24RBI (32 games started)

Total - .253 32HR 132RBI

Average of - .253 8HR 33RBI (56 games started)
X4 -.253 32HR 132RBI - If all four were combined into one player.

2009 Kevin Youkilis - .304 24HR 94RBI (136 games started)
2009 Dustin Pedroia - .296 15HR 72RBI (154 games started)
2009 Jacoby Ellsbury - .301 7HR 60RBI (153 games started)

2009 Total - .300 46HR 226RBI

Average of - .300 15HR 75RBI (148 games started)
X3 - .300 60HR 225RBI - If all three were combined into one player.

2010 Kevin Youkilis - .307 19HR 62RBI (102 games started)
2010 Dustin Pedroia - .288 12HR 41 RBI (75 games started)
2010 Jacoby Ellsbury - .192 0HR 5RBI (18 games started)

Average of .262 10HR 36RBI (65 games started)

2010 Total - .262 31HR 106RBI

Missing from Y,P,E - At least an additional .276 14HR 94RBI

.288 39HR 166RBI
-.253 32HR 134RBI
= .271 7HR 32RBI

Missing from 2010 Red Sox Batting Roster As Was/Is - .271 7HR 32RBI
With Y,P,E 2010 Red Sox were on pace for an additional - .274 21HR 126RBI
2010 Batting Totals for Red Sox would've been - .271 232HR 908RBI



1. Jon Lester - 32 starts 19-9 3.25 ERA
2. Clay Buccholz - 28 starts 17-7 2.33 ERA
3. John Lackey - 33 starts 14-11 4.40 ERA
4. Daisuke Matsuzaka - 25 starts 9-6 4.69 ERA
5. Josh Beckett - 21 starts 6-6 5.78 ERA
6. Tim Wakefield -19 starts 4-10 5.34 ERA

Overall: 158 starts 69-49 (40 No decisions) 4.04 ERA - The loss record is slightly more inflated because Wakefield wasn't a starter all year. Some of those losses came in relief.

And as you can see in the previous section, not one of the bench players who had to fill in regularly came close to 100 games (which wouldn't be great for a starter) except for Bill Hall.

Who would you rather have starting on your team? Hall, Nava, McDonald, and Kalish or Ellsbury, Pedroia and Youkilis?

You don't think missing 94 additional runs had any effect on the pitching at all, do ya?

Wow, that game took forever to finish. Good thing Izzy came through at the end.

This might be the most incoherent I've ever heard Grill.

Seriously, no insults grill, it'll take 2 days just to even understand what you wrote.

Yep, sweeping both the Cards and Rockies was all Manny. It had nothing to do with pitching. A-Rod of course is the only reason why the Yankees won in 2008. If he wasn't on the juice they would've been fucked.

* so on the Red Sox pitchers, they had a starter for all the year...either Beckett or Wakefield...and maybe the Red Sox shitty ERAs had alot to do with losing...

* and you ignored that Beckett was a #1 pitcher, previously.....

* first, how many RBIs were gotten by Beltre and Ortiz, both with had over 100....as Ortiz batted an very average 270

* and just like bad management lead to not playing Ells in CF, maybe then bad management had a problem with carry 6 pitchers - should Wakefield have been released..

* and all teams have injuries, Yankees had starters on the DL for about 150 Games in 2010...so that was my biggest problem with the Red Sox whining...you have to except injuries during the year....that is why you have 25 players...

* and on Manny, the Red Sox don't even get to the WS without Manny...

Slugging > 2004 AL .613 (1st)
HRs > 2004 AL 43 (1st)
2004 Hank Aaron Award
2004 Silver Slugger Award, American League
2004 Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year Award
2004 World Series Most Valuable Player Award
***** and his post season batting averages in each series - 385 / 300 and 412 in WS

God it is so pathetic that you can ignore Manny whole year and just talk about 4-0 sweep, as Manny carried the Red Sox to the Playoffs

and in 2007, even while being hurt for part of the year - 20/88/296 in 130 games

but in the playoffs 375/409/250

and you don't beat Cleveland if not for Manny

************** so Red Sox never even get to either WS if not for Manny, a it is pathetic for so-called Red Sox fans not to give Manny his due!

One being a lot more talented than the other...



In 2007. Lester became the #1 in 2008.



Clearly you didn't understand the point of the previous post. Without those three their offense was worse than it could've been and it was still pretty good. Yes Beltre and Ortiz had over 100 RBI's. The would've had even more with Ellsbury, Pedroia and Youkilis, not to mention the totals those three would've contributed.

As I hinted at in the previous post, no one with a sound mind would rather have those four utility players over Ellsbury, Pedroia and Youkilis. The fact that your even arguing it is laughable.



Are you kidding? You clearly have no idea about even the most simplistic facts about baseball management. You think it's bad management to carry six starting pitchers? Okay, say you have five and one gets injured. Then your stuck with a four man rotation and then need to either make a trade or hope someone decent enough is a free agent. It's sort of smart to have a backup plan. The problem the Red Sox faced is that they didn't want to use Wakefield in an extended role but got stuck when Beckett went down for half the year.



Who went down on the Yankees that had the same talent level as Beckett, Ellsbury, Pedroia, and Youkilis for as long as each of those four did? Something like A-Rod going down on the 15 day DL does not count because he was able to come back after the 15 days.



My point was not to give Manny his due. My point was that the Red Sox didn't get there or win solely because of Manny. They got there because they had a complete team.

* and Josh Beckett wasn't #1 in 2008 after Becklett just came off a 20-7 season and Lester had a career record of 11-2 over 2 seasons...sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

* and whatever if you can't admit to Manny's contributions, especially in 2004...really sad and a joke.

*
but 1st All Star Andy Petitte who was 11-2 at the All-Star break and missed most of the 2nd half of the season....WAS A BIGGER LOSS THAN BECKETT...ESPECIALLY SINCE THE YANKEES HAD TO USE ROOKIES TO REPLACE HIM!!!

And Austin Kerns, who was going to be DH/LF, missed 130 games...and he had a lifetime 350 on base average - big loss.

and then Arod and Granderson missed about 30 games each - which is alot more than is expected for an everyday player....

15 K's for Weaver. Amazing. Cy Young could be in contention here.

Good thing the Cy Young is given out in the middle of April!

Remind me. Who started Game 1 of the 2008 ALDS? I said Lester became the number one in 2008. I didn't say when in 2008 that happened.



I did. You just weren't smart enough to read into it. Without Manny the Red Sox probably don't win in 2004. That saying, if the Red Sox didn't have Curt Schilling or Pedro Martinez they probably don't win either, or even make the playoffs. And if they don't have David Ortiz they probably get swept in the ALCS.



Who else did they lose? I told you to name me some other players who were hurt on the Yankees that were the same caliber and were gone as long as Ellsbury, Pedroia and Youkilis were. And losing Pettite didn't hurt the Yankees anywhere near as much as losing the four the Red Sox did. They still had three solid starters and a killer lineup.





Austin Kerns? He didn't even arrive to the Yankees until late July. I don't think there are 130 games between August and September.



And both were able to come back. Ellsbury, Pedroia and Youkilis did not.

Odd that a 1-7 team just beat Grill's Yankees. Very odd!

And with Beckett no less.