I don't have a problem with anyone's religion, as long as they don't try to impose it on the rest of America.

We're obviously on different wavelengths here, Eagle. I don't find any validity in god/religion and all I did was state my opinion, which I'm allowed to do just like any religious person is allowed to state their opinion.

I don't see anything about my comments that are intolerant or disrespectful. I didn't call anyone names, say they shouldn't have equal rights, or say anything nasty. It's not intolerance for me to find the whole concept laughable and say so. I'm just treating religion/god as equal to any other theory or institution and it's not my fault it doesn't hold up to logic, sense, or reason.

There was no name calling or anything of the sort on my part but I suppose my statements could be taken as hurtful, then again anything can be interpreted as hurtful. We could go the other way and I could say I find the term "non-believers" hurtful but that doesn't make the person who's saying it cruel or nasty, it's just my reaction to the words. If someone is so unsteady in their godly beliefs that me saying "imaginary friend" damages their insides then I'm sorry but that would be their issue and not mine.

I said I was disappointed that Obama brings up god/religion all the time and that I'd prefer it if he were just pandering to the religious crowd. What's the problem there? I didn't attack him or say anything cruel, all I did was voice an opinion. I'm allowed to say that just like Obama, you, or anyone is allowed say "god bless america" or talk about how they disagree with Richard Dawkins and hope he finds religion one day or whatever else. It's not "disrespectful" for me to just voice my POV, which is that god is an imaginary friend. By that logic, then it's disrespectful for someone to say to me that god is real and all around us etc. That's not the case.

My "Oh, right, that's only if you're religious and want the freedom to preach, but if you're not then apparently you have to keep your mouth shut" comment was part of a larger response about how the president doesn't lose any first amendment rights and that, just like Obama saying "god bless america" and whatever else is his right, it's my right to say that I'm disappointed in that.

Also, I really don't see how at any point I forced my thoughts onto others. Once again, I was just stating a different POV and that's all, but that's too much for some I guess. I didn't say religious people are evil, or that they deserve "lesser than" status, or anything of the sort. You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that I'd "allow" people to be religious what I actually said was that I would never, ever vote to disallow anyone the right to believe and practice what they want as long as no living things are harmed as a result and that no religion should get any special treatment or tax breaks. Where is this intolerance and disrespect?

I'm fairly certain you're taking my usage of words like "nonsense" and "imaginary friend" as disrespect but if that's the case then, to be blunt, you're wrong. That's where my different opinion of how religion isn't special and doesn't deserve this unjustified and undeserved special treatment comes in. I respect people's right to believe what they want, practice what they want, and say what the want but that doesn't mean I have to personally endorse it as sensible and worth anyone's time, or tip-toe around the logic absent belief systems so as not to offend.

There's no winning here because according to you "really respecting others beliefs" is putting religion/god on the same pedestal as you do and if I--like many others--find it to be wholly without merritt and, yes, nonsensical then I'm not going to treat it with this blind devotion.

I am Agnostic, not religious. I have no relationship with God, I've come to the opinion that there is no way to determin the answer in either direction. I choose to live day by day, learning and growing, attempting to be the best person I can be. I'm far from perfect, I make mistakes, and I fall off track, but I continue to try and move forward, growing as a person along the way.

I don't put God on a pedestal, I just choose to respect the beliefs of others. Who am I to say that someone's beliefs are nonsensical? I don't have that right, and neither do you. Believe whatever it is you choose to believe, but respect that same right for others, even if their beliefs run contrary to your own.

I was raised Jewish and have Christian family members that I lived with for a while, so I've experienced this god business through at least those two religions (a couple biggies) in depth and feel entirely comfortable in stating they're made up of balderdash and chicanery.

So, I suppose we can agree to disagree about religion and god since I find I have every right to say something that doesn't make any reasonable or logical sense is nonsensical just like someone who takes that "leap of faith" people like to talk about can say it makes sense to them.

the reason why people are ganging up on you and calling you whiny for being overly dramatic is because if i had started this thread and say 'i'm so glad obama talked bout god and went about it', guys like you would have jumped in. my equivalent would be to come here crying and saying 'hey why can't i state my opinion on how i feel' and you'd all be like 'we're doing the exact same' and then i'd say ....

i think i've made my point. no one really cares about you having an opinion on god and religion. but if you wish to state it, be ready for people to come and tell you whats on their minds as well. some people find your attitude disrespectful and they have an opinion, just like you, to come and state it if you feel you have the freedom to say as you wish and preach your own beliefs as well.

And that's fine. In the end, that's your opinion and I'm not here to try and change it. But you should understand, that IS intolerance by defenition, and that IS applying your values to others beliefs, and that IS no better than any other religious zealot pushing what they think on others.

If you get that, and still don't care, or still find value in that opinion ... then so be it. You're life, live how you feel best and don't let anyone tell you different. Just don't masquarade as a beacon of tollerance.

Sorry, but you should understand this:

"Intolerance - a: unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters b: unwilling to grant or share social, political, or professional rights."

That's actually the definition of being intolerant (at least according to Merriam-Webster) so, once again for the hard of reading, I am in no way being intolerant by saying "imaginary friend" or "nonsensical" or any of my other opinions on the religions themselves. Am I being insensitive? Fine. Vocal? Yes. Intolerant? No.

You may take offense to "imaginary friend" but that doesn't mean it's me being intolerant. I'm not prohibiting anyone from thinking/saying what they want, or saying people should have different rights depending on what they believe, or anything like that at all. Just because someone upsets you or disagrees doesn't make them intolerant or a bigot, it can also be a simple case of a different opinion.

Why I'm still being attributed--by Eagle, at least--as "pushing" anything on anyone I don't know since I haven't done that in the slightest. I didn't tell anyone they're wrong, that they should come to my side of thinking, etc. All I did was comment and respond, then defend myself against incorrect accusations and name calling.

I'm a little puzzled but what someone who thinks religion/god is no good can say, according to some of you, since anything that isn't "respecful" is lumped in as intolerant. Is the only recourse for someone who finds religion as sensible as the Flying Spaghetti Monster to smile and say "I respectfully disagree" and nothing else? What is the big deal if I find it stupid and voice that? Again, just because someone chooses to not pussyfoot around a tender topic doesn't qualify them as intolerant.

I mean, I know someone who loves pretty much ANY chick-flick ever and we debate/talk/argue about that but it doesn't mean I'm being intolerant to her or bigoted and think she's less of a person. To me, religion is on the same level as someone's taste in movies, or fashion style, or political views. It's a POV that can be discussed but shouldn't be afforded special treatment because it's been The Untouchable since forever.

Why do we hold religious beliefs to be so much more protected from criticism than, say, belief that aliens control the President or leprechauns live in a secret valley?

If someone were to come to you and say, with all seriousness, that the world is flat and exists on the back of a giant turtle, would you respect that opinion? I'm not saying you should insult that person, but really, do we say "Well, it's a religious belief so therefore it is beyond question"? What if their belief is that their god is only for white people and everyone else should be killed? Do you respect that belief?

I think everything should be questioned. Religion, politics, philosophy -- questioning is how we learn. And not every belief is equal, nor should every belief be treated with the same respect.

EDIT: Mind you, this is different from saying that every religious belief should not be protected under the law; I am a very strong believer in the rights of everyone to practice their own religions free from interference from the government. But I also support the other part of the 1st amendment that allows me to criticize it, too!

Eh, I'm not saying he can't hold whatever beliefs he wants; I'm just frustrated that when I try to debate religion with people, someone always says "Oh, you can't question someone's religion, we must respect all beliefs." Well, no, we don't have to respect stupid beliefs.

Well, true -- I guess my point was that I do get frustrated when I try to discuss religion with certain people and they say "Oh, you can't question someone's religion, because after all they believe it really strongly." My response is still "What does that have to do with anything? Just because you believe in something really really hard doesn't mean it's true..."

So maybe respect wasn't the best word -- but it seems like whenever I even try to question, some people see that as disrespect.

Because when someone says "Prove to me the world is not flat" I can show a mountain of proof to that end. Can I fully prove it? Depends on how in-depth we want this conversation to be, but I can sure provide a lot of evidence.

When someone says "Prove to me God doesn't exist," well, that's a much deeper question, a philosophical question even. There may be a growing mountain of facts against creationism, but creationism is not God and God can certainly exist without creationism. It's ignorant to think we can presume where we came from or why we are here.

The simple answer is, for one question there is a lot more concrete proof than for the other. We simply know far too little, too much of our existence remains a mystery, and because of that, we can't say with anything nearing proof that God doesn't exist. Malcom has no more proof that the existence of God is nonsensical than someone who says "The Earth is flat" has proof that it is infact flat, but him continuing to operate under those stereotypes is intolerant. His belief holds no more water than does anyone else's, so acting like it does is, in my opinion, more nonsensical than the belief in God.





The fact is Malcom, you refuse to accept the beliefs of others as anything other than nonsensical. You may not deny them the right to these beliefs, but you refuse to accept them as valid or realistic without proof to the contrary other than your own beliefs, which is the definition of intolerance in my mind.

And please note, I said that you are applying your intolerant beliefs to others. You are stereotyping any religious person as nonsensical with no valid reasoning to back it up, you decry their beliefs based only on your own and claim their opinions to be illogical. It's ignorant, and more so it's an unfair stereotype.

Ugh. This is riduculous.

Do snakes talk? No. Is something horrible going to happen if one has milk and meat products on the same plate? Nope, not unless they're lactose intolerant or the meat is bad. Can people walk on water? No, not without some scientific aide if at all. Did Noah get two of every animal in the world on a boat? No.

The beliefs themselves are nonsensical. That doesn't mean all the people are, or that I count myself as more valuable or important to the world. Most people just accept what they're raised to believe. For the vast majority of these beliefs you really only need to look at them to decide for yourself whether or not there's any logical, reasonable sense there.

I don't make a point of going around to every religious person I know and asking them to explain their beliefs to me, I don't argue with everyone at work who wears a crucifix, I just treat every person like I'd want to be treated--as another person living in the world who deserves the rights and equal treatment as anyone else. Just because I don't "respect" their beliefs doesn't mean I don't respect them as human beings. My sister dresses like an idiot, but just because I have no respect for her fashion sense doesn't mean I don't respect her as a person. This is all very simple.

The fact that there's no way to disprove a god doesn't make it any more sensible that it's true. Just because something can't be proven false doesn't make it so. Disprove to me the existence of unicorns, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the invisible dragon that lives in my garage, or the teapot floating around Jupiter, etc. You can't disprove any of those things, so they all must merritt the same level of respect as Judaism and Christianity and whatever other religion by your logic.

I've had personal, life-long experience with both Judaism and Christianity so how does that not enable me to judge whether or not they make any logical, factual, reasonable sense? Who are you to tell me that I can't file those under "nonsense"?

When someone compares the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to Judaism and Christianity it's time to stop discussing anything of substance with them, because it's clearly pointless.

Despite what you said earlier you are clearly putting religion--at the very least, god--on a pedestal, above criticism or comparison with things that make just as much sense, so you're right. This is clearly pointless and we should stop talking to each other.

Why is that? Why can't we compare them? Is it because the FSM is obviously made up and no one really believes in it?

How about instead comparing Christianity with belief in Zeus and the other Greek Gods on Olympus? Is that OK? People actually did believe in them once and no longer do.

yes it is totally pointless because one was created to answer something people had trouble understanding and intrically designed ... it might come as a shock to you but someone actually put thought into most of them to answer questions .. your experience in it may not be so but its true for most religions .. as i've noticed many times, your experience with religion usually doesn't extend beyond christianity and your observation of some religious people .... FSM on the other hand is the total opposite .. something created first and then conditioned to meet certain requirements .... i've tried to explain this to you before but you just don't happen to get it ....

i'm not trying to sound condescending .. its tough to explain without sounding it ... but the point i'm trying to get across is that one of the main reasons why you have trouble udnerstanding a god believing or a religious mentality is that you just totally dont get the mentality .... which is why comparison of FSM and the more 'accepted' view on god and religion is something you can throw at just about anyone who is even remotely religious and they'll look back and you and wonder how idiotic that sounds. its one of those same thigns with Santa Claus ... everyone who is athiest seems to get the santa and god comparison. anyone whose not just plain doesn't.

The greek god comparison is MUUUUUCH more similar .. almost identical.

the point of this whole thing is a basic point that eagle is trying to make. a lot of thigns malcolm and yourself are sitting here saying makes me look at you and question your IQs .. .again thats not meant as an insult .. its simply to point out that either of us aren't getting the other person's mentality. while i totally consider my personal religious and godly beliefs to be 'sane in my own personal view', this may not be to another.

i just find it hilarious half the time from people like malcolm however who sounds exactly like the same person he accuses religious people of being. its a total level of intolerance that i find in his views, a certain amount of hate of just about anything other than that that conforms to his views. its even more amusing that malcolm feels totally oblivious to it.

again, not meant to be condescending. its meant to show that complete and total lack of understanding of the other's mind set.

It all boils down to "but we believe in one and not the other" though, doesn't it? As if belief by itself legitimizes it.



Oh, of course -- people who believe in religion are absolutely sincere and in their minds it all makes perfect logical sense. I understand that, in the same way the ancient Greeks believed in their gods as well. But you agree that they were wrong, don't you? You might even laugh at someone today who claimed to believe in Zeus. But why should your belief not be held to the same standard?



It might also be due to the discrimination we nonbelievers have to deal with. We are insulted daily by people who look down on us, claim we have no morals, prohibit us from being involved in certain activities such as Boy Scouts (to use an easy example). Sometimes we get tired of it, and we fight back, and sometimes we treat you believers the same way you treat us -- and generally speaking, you don't like it any more than we do.

(Note: I am using "you" in a general sense here; I don't mean you or anyone else here on the boards. Well maybe BKB.)

I actually couldn't agree with you more Mike, but I still respect the beliefs of others. The simple fact is, religion ISN'T the same as someone saying the Earth is flat, and it certainly isn't the same as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's a part of many people, right, wrong, illogical or just simply different.

Religious beliefs deserve our respect, and they deserve our tolerance. People have a right to believe, but not a right to push that belief on you, something they do far too often. But just because they push, doesn't mean you have to as well.

It all boils down to "but we believe in one and not the other" though, doesn't it? As if belief by itself legitimizes it.

no it doesn't. you're under some assumption that people believe because they wish to believe, not realizing that people have some rationale for believing in it, just like you have some rationale to not. there is no legitimizing of matters here. it doesn't go beyond that.

Oh, of course -- people who believe in religion are absolutely sincere and in their minds it all makes perfect logical sense. I understand that, in the same way the ancient Greeks believed in their gods as well. But you agree that they were wrong, don't you? You might even laugh at someone today who claimed to believe in Zeus. But why should your belief not be held to the same standard?

everything doesn't. most does. just like everything thats part of your american life is something you may not agree with but in general you do.

i think the greek gods were incorrect ... i have my reasons for believing so, just like you have your reasons to believe they're ALL in correct. thats not whats being discussed here, nor is it what eagle has said. i still respect the people who believed in it .. i can see, understand, why they chose to believe in them and how their structure was created. i can see exactly why hindus have a caste system in relation to their reincarnation .. but i do not mock them.

many people do .. and that is what we call intolerance .. hell you guys spend half your time just on these forums pointing out how christians just care about themselves .. no one else .. thats the point eagle is trying to make .. you mock them .. and then continue to display a very similar behavior.


It might also be due to the discrimination we nonbelievers have to deal with. We are insulted daily by people who look down on us, claim we have no morals, prohibit us from being involved in certain activities such as Boy Scouts (to use an easy example). Sometimes we get tired of it, and we fight back, and sometimes we treat you believers the same way you treat us -- and generally speaking, you don't like it any more than we do.

(Note: I am using "you" in a general sense here; I don't mean you or anyone else here on the boards. Well maybe BKB.)


There is no reason to clarify that. i know you don't mean it personally and are speaking in general senses. and my only reply to you is a simple .... we go by our experiences. ever since moving to the west, just like you're sitting here talking about being discriminated about being a non believer, i can tell you that i've spent the btter part of my 10 years now feeling discriminated for being a believer in god (forget the fact that i'm a muslim, which cretes even bigger issues with athiests and other religious folks alike). whther its at work, school or social, a simple mention of being religious often has that person thinking hes tactful but isn't really ready to start giving his opinion and thinking his jokes are somewhat funny .... or constantly reminding you that you somehow stand out ... or outright letting you know how fucking stupid you are ....
i may live in an area unlike yours, where most of the time, outside of the community, most people around here in general are agnostic or athiests ... but the attitude between those you talk about and those around me is the same .. there is no difference in my opinion .... i fear the day more people in general are agnostic or athiests because i'm almost completely sure that their behavior, intolerance will start reflecting in legislations, policy and law. they just don't have control yet but the signs are all there.

where i live, you gotta be more careful about announcing you're religious ... just the way where you are, being an athiest is something you have to be careful about mentioning ... but again, you won't see that .. cause we're both coming from 2 different sides .... neither of us will see it, or get it.


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I don't think this argument is against the possibility of god or a creator. One can believe in those things for reasons outside of a religion. I'm agnostic, there is no evidence on either side as far as I'm concerned and I don't mind arguments for a creator. There's aspects of the world that can argue design. But Christianity, religion, and fundamentalism, have nothing to do with this.

I can buy arguments for the world being by design. I can't buy arguments for the fantasy novel that is the Bible being true, and I refuse to stand by the billions of people who believe this book without an ounce of evidence or truth, and the ones who've use these false beliefs in action and to justify violence and other crimes over the centuries, absolutely deserve to be spit on. With all the shit and death religion as a whole's kicked up, there's no reason to hold back tongues, it doesn't deserve it

The Santa/Flying Spagetthi Monster/etc. comparison mentioned is perfectly valid, and the double standard between Christianity and Scientology or the Greeks or some of the other stuff Groucho mentioned is clearly evident. I believe that's what's being argued here. Christianity seems to have a taboo where it's "offensive" to criticize it for being based on nothing, but apparantley criticizing others beliefs based on nothing (ghosts, Santa, etc.) is off bounds. For the record I think people can believe as they wish, I just think it should be made clear that you know, it's based on nothing

The religions I can handle more are some of the buddha/hindu ones not based on fundamentalism and which leave the believing subjective... that's fine with me.

Too often, the fundamentalists who demand respect for their own religion offer none to those who have different beliefs. This is true of all the major religions who have little more than contempt for others.

I think Obama has been right in reaching out to all religions, not just his own, and to non-believers as well. That's the best he as a person of faith can do I think.

"I just find it hilarious half the time from people like malcolm however who sounds exactly like the same person he accuses religious people of being. its a total level of intolerance that i find in his views, a certain amount of hate of just about anything other than that that conforms to his views. its even more amusing that malcolm feels totally oblivious to it."

You are misinterpreting my dislike and hostile feelings towards Eagle in this instance for something else, I think.

If I find religion to be on the same level of relevance and importance as fashion, taste in movies, etc then it's not me being intolerant. I just value it differently. I think lowly of religion the same way I think lowly of leg warmers, or muscle shirts. It's not like I see someone wearing leg warmers and I hate them as a human being. I think their fashion selections are bad and outdated, but that doesn't mean I wish them ill-will, or think they're "lesser than", or anything like that. I just think they have a bad fashion sense, that's all. And it's not like I'd go up to some stranger and tell them they look stupid for wearing leg warmers. I wouldn't say anything at all. However, if someone I knew wore leg warmers I would most definitely joke about it and be sarcastic the same way I wouldn't go around telling religious people they're silly, or something, but with people I know I do discuss religion. That isn't an example of intolerance.

However, when I talk to people, like in this thread, who aren't comprehending that I don't consider religion this untouchable, be-all-end-all "you musn't question the almighty god!" topic and then resort to calling me names (moronic, for example) and repeating over and over (ad nauseum) that I'm being intolerant while ignoring my valid questions and comparisons it annoys me just as I imagine it would annoy anyone.

Like I said earlier, there is a difference between me being insensitive and intolerant. While I could be accused of being insensitive in this thread there is no intolerance here, just a different viewpoint and a different value system.

So, and I'm being serious here, what is it about anything I've said here that is "intolerant" and not just insensitive?

Well leg warmers have one thing on religion. Like 200 million less deaths and no wars, no justification for the continued restriction of human rights like sexual preference and racism in the past, the restriction of scientific and technological progress in history, ... hey wait, that's more than one thing

You're right, there. If I had to choose between a country of people who always wore leg warmers and an overwhelmingly religious nation I would have to go the leg warmer route. I suppose they might also be really into 80's music, which could go either way...

i'm gonna say that more often than not, this is true for athiests themselves. they just don't see it and refuse to acknowledge it. no one here is defending the religious ones going out and doing so