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 Stimulus Bill 
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Post Stimulus Bill
Wanted a topic to discuss it, so I made one.

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Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:17 pm
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
I need money

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Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:20 pm
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Dems dropped two of the stupider program funding initiatives they had proposed:

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On Monday, Senate Democrats dropped two controversial spending programs in the Senate economic stimulus bill: $75 million for anti-smoking programs and $400 million for the prevention of sexually transmitted diseases and HIV.


Said they did it to show Republicans they are listening, which is a very good thing, give them credit. Hopefully they will listen a bit more and take some of the good out of the Republican drafted stimulus alternative, leaving us with some kind of hybrid bill, a true bi-partisan effort.

We're getting there, some of the garbage has been cleaned out.

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Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:21 pm
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Some of the garbage left to root out:

- A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion pictures

- $650 million for the digital television (DTV) converter box coupon program

- $248 million for furniture at the new Department of Homeland Security headquarters

- $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees

- $1 billion for the 2010 Census


There is even some merit to things like Census spending, but make that a separate bill, not part of the damn Stimulus when it has no stimulating impact. Many comments from Obama seem to suggest he's in favor of a leaner, more to the point bill such as Republicans proposed alternative:

Obama wrote:
"We're going to be trimming up -- things that are not relevant to putting people back to work right now," he said

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Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:23 pm
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
I don't mind the hybrid one... I mean, maybe add on that they can ONLY have hybrids.

But the DTV boxes are dumb, if you don't have one, then sorry. Move into the future.

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Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:26 pm
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Draft a bill to give an income tax credit to anyone buying a Hybrid, not a program to simply buy them for "government employee's."

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Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:28 pm
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Eagle wrote:
Draft a bill to give an income tax credit to anyone buying a Hybrid, not a program to simply buy them for "government employee's."


Yeah, they could do that...

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Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:29 pm
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
This bill is so stupid politically. The democrats had a once in a lifetime chance to change the game, to tag republicans as the big spenders, even as socialists and now they push for this bill which is even bigger than the one last fall.


Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:02 pm
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Eagle wrote:
Said they did it to show Republicans they are listening, which is a very good thing, give them credit. Hopefully they will listen a bit more and take some of the good out of the Republican drafted stimulus alternative, leaving us with some kind of hybrid bill, a true bi-partisan effort.


If they want to clean out the non-stimulus programs and earmarks, that's fine, but for all their grousing, the Republican bill is over 3 times more expensive, albeit over 10 years instead of 3.

And it unsurprisingly focuses the bulk of its expense on tax cuts and tax breaks for the wealthy and big corporations, which I think is a huge mistake.

But given the track record of Republicans and the economy over the last 8 years, why are we listening to them at all? Just for the sake of bipartisanship?


Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:18 pm
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Eagle wrote:
There is even some merit to things like Census spending, but make that a separate bill, not part of the damn Stimulus when it has no stimulating impact.


I definitely agree with that.


Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:23 pm
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Maybe that's a difference of philosophy, but I still think the people making between 75k and 300k are the ones needing a tax cut the most.

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Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:56 pm
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Eagle wrote:
Maybe that's a difference of philosophy, but I still think the people making between 75k and 300k are the ones needing a tax cut the most.


I'm not opposed to tax cuts for them, especially below $100K, but given the expense of the bill and the greater needs for those making less, I don't think they are a huge priority. And I don't see how you sell the idea that they need a tax cut because private schools are so expensive when people less well off are losing their houses and having to choose between food and health care.


Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:11 pm
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
If people are so bad off they are losing their houses, and choosing between food and health care, then a tax credit isn't going to help them, let alone stimulate the economy. You don't pay taxes when you're unemployed, and even if they have been forced into a low income job, they are already paying an extremely minimal amount.

Don't buy a house you can't afford: Declare bankruptcy, get a job, a cheap apartment, and start rebuilding your life. Stop waiting for the government to bail you out, bail yourself out.

Furthermore, stop trying to protect the people who have already lost their houses. We will never be able to help everyone going through hard times. Instead, help those who STILL have mortgages they can't afford, subsidize the banks to get their rates down, re-finance to lower the payments and extend the loan with government backing, and help people keep their houses. Use tax dollars to further subsidize banks to float artificially low interest rates to stimulate the housing market.

Stop trying to put a band aid on a gunshot wound and instead stop the guy who's about to shoot you again. Fix the housing market and financial system, stabilize the world.

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Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:35 pm
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Eagle wrote:
If people are so bad off they are losing their houses, and choosing between food and health care, then a tax credit isn't going to help them, let alone stimulate the economy. You don't pay taxes when you're unemployed, and even if they have been forced into a low income job, they are already paying an extremely minimal amount.


The stimulus isn't just about tax cuts. It's also about creating jobs. And anyone with a pulse (which apparently does not include any Republicans) realizes that federal income taxes are not the only taxes one faces, especially on the lower income scale. There are state, local, sales, payroll, gas taxes for starters.

And easing that tax burden helps the economy a lot more than it does on the wealthy end of the income bracket. Because the poor and middle class spend a higher percentage of their money back into the economy.

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Furthermore, stop trying to protect the people who have already lost their houses.


Instead we should be protecting the people who are moaning at having to pay $40K a year in private school out of their $300K income?! Gee, and you wonder where Republicans get the reputation for pissing on the poor and catering to the rich.

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Don't buy a house you can't afford: Declare bankruptcy, get a job, a cheap apartment, and start rebuilding your life. Stop waiting for the government to bail you out, bail yourself out.


First of all, for most people, the housing collapse wasn't about buying too much house; it was about their mortgages going under water. You can make all your payments and still lose your house.

Second, a tax cut is hardly a bail out.

And lastly, I want to get this straight. While you're telling the poor and struggling middle class to go screw off for not having the good sense not to be poor, you're wanting us to spend billions more dollars on people who are only left with hundreds of thousands of dollars after they pay for their luxury private schools? THEY'RE the ones who have the real problems?

Again, good luck selling that plan. The fiddle-playing for the rich is one of the reasons why Republicans are in the wilderness right now.

And at the risk of sounding redundant on this point, I would like to add again that we tried the Republican way of doing things for 8 years. It fucking cratered the economy into the worst recession since the Great Depression. No more please.


Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:56 am
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Yes, because the Republicans are alone in responsibility for the housing crisis and the financial implosion that soon followed. Keep dreaming.

Secondly, I don't JUST want to give the tax cut to the 'rich' as you call it, though I consider 75k to 300k to be middle class. I want to give it to everyone, I just keep speaking of that range because it's our point of contention.

I do agree, the bill should be about creating jobs, and I'd like to see MORE of that done than what's done in the current draft, but I also think you slash off some of the garbage, and make sure the middle class is included in the tax cut.

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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Eagle wrote:
Draft a bill to give an income tax credit to anyone buying a Hybrid, not a program to simply buy them for "government employee's."

No, that part meant that when the government has to buy new cars (as they do) for employees (including police officers and so on) that they have to get hybrid cars instead of regular cars.

Some reporter looked at the complaints the GOP had brought up about the bill, and all these things added up to less than 1% of the total. Seems people are making the proverbial mountain out of a molehill.

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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
I don't know about that. Here is the GOP list of what they consider non-stimulating fluff in the bill:

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• $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.

• A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.

• $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.

• $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).

• $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.

• $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.

• $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.

• $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.

• $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.

• $125 million for the Washington sewer system.

• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

• $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."

• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.

• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.

• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.

• $500 million for state and local fire stations.

• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.

• $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.

• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.

• $412 million for CDC buildings and property.

• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.

• $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.

• $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.

• $850 million for Amtrak.

• $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.

• $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.

• $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.

• $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.


That totals up to over 2% of the bill, and 2% of 820 Billion is ... a heck of a lot of money, over $20 billion, and a damn big molehill. As with the previous ones mentioned, some have merit, but not as part of a stimulus bill. I think there are 3 listed above that I would actually probably keep, the rest needs to go.

I've said it from the start: There's just too much garbage attached to this bill, needless thing that do NOTHING to stimulate the economy. Like, I get that the damn Census is going to cost about 4 billion more than expected, but craft a SEPERATE bill to give the FULL funding needed, as opposed to adding 1 billion here, another billion on the next bill, etc. It's ridiculous, but hey, if they made things that transparent then how could one person run commercials saying they voted FOR something while their opponent runs another commercial saying they voted AGAINST the same damn thing.

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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Eagle wrote:
That totals up to over 2% of the bill, and 2% of 820 Billion is ... a heck of a lot of money, over $20 billion, and a damn big molehill.


So the difference between what Republicans consider a waste-filled irresponsible spending spree that they unanimously rejected and an acceptable and workable stimulus is a whopping 2%?

And no one takes them seriously about fiscal responsibility. Go figure.


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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Ahh yes, laugh obnoxiously because the $20 billion in irresponsible spending is "only" 2% of the total bill, claim how fiscally responsible your party is, and continue backing the useless fluff.

We need to get rid of the extras, focus on tax-breaks for the middle-class, and spend on things that make sense. Don't spend on long-term programs that hit home over years, don't spend on bueatification projects, spend in areas that need the money to begin with, but will also help create jobs.

The Republicans bill isn't perfect (too many corporate tax breaks), but the Democratic plan is currently even worse. There is good on both sides, so lets merge that together and make a better bill. I mean come on, even Democrats like Clinton are questioning the crap in this bill.

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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
The smithsonian rebuild would create jobs, it is needed because the castle needs a decent bit of repairing. Also the 50 million for the NEA is good because it would give money to museums to create some jobs. We need college educated people need jobs too.


Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:22 pm
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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Eagle wrote:
Ahh yes, laugh obnoxiously because the $20 billion in irresponsible spending is "only" 2% of the total bill, claim how fiscally responsible your party is, and continue backing the useless fluff.


I don't back the useless fluff. I just think it's a pointless distraction, especially coming from the party that doubled the national debt in just 8 years, NOT including the massive boondoggle in Iraq that you supported and continue to support. $20 billion is a little less than two months in Iraq. And where has that gotten us?

So yes, I'm laughing obnoxiously at the notion that you give two craps about 2% of the fluff in this bill after backing the Bush administration for 8 straight years of spending-like-drunken fucking sailors, dumping $1 trillion in Iraq, and blowing a $6 trillion hole in the debt.


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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Eagle wrote:

- $248 million for furniture at the new Department of Homeland Security headquarters


What the... Is the furniture made out of pure gold? :wacko:

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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
Eagle wrote:
I don't know about that. Here is the GOP list of what they consider non-stimulating fluff in the bill:

Quote:
• $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.

• A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.

Hollywood is very big business though I agree this is unneccessary I Know for a fact that a lot of communities lose potential business because other countries like canada are wooing studios for filming locations. The places these studios film see a bump in the economy and one that can have a long term effect as well.

• $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.

Like it or not not everyone has the money to buy a new TV or get cable. Some people live in place that don't have cable and so forth. The TV is an important part of the EBS and it is important to mke sure that peopel have full and total access to it. TV works as a better medium for the EBS than the radio

• $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).

I knod of find this silly but most of the people who complain about this wouldn't complain if it was an A-10 or Tank

• $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.

It does need a HQ and thank Bush for creating the dept.

• $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.

• $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.

This is for new vehicles that need to be purchased by the goverment the money si going to be spent anyways and we will save money in gas.

• $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.

ANd this saves a lot of money down the road when it comes to these Diseases. Testing increases awareness removes doubt and can help restore self confidence. The people hit hardest are poor who might not be able to fork out 75 every 6 months or when neccessary

• $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.

Creates jobs in rural areas and is a vital part of infrastructure

• $125 million for the Washington sewer system.

I am not sure about the state of the sewer system so I can't comment though I agree local projects shoudl be left out

• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

Read above though likely this shoudl just be in a budget

• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

The Census is a very important database that gives the goverments tools to district determine proper spending and even tax cuts or hikes more efficiently and fully belongs in the stimulus

• $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."

Even though I just quit smoking I am against this. I am not in favor of this nations direction when it comes to smoking

• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

Education is important tools for education is important. Technology needs to be upgraded all the time in order to remain relevent and this is actually very cheap compared to what it should be

• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

How many people in the FBI? This is enough to pay 750 employess $100,000 a year or 1,500 employees $50,000 a year. I don't want agents making less than 50K it makes them to susceptable ot alternate means of income. Besides don't you want to feel more secure. This isn't much at all

• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

Again this comes back through health care down the line

• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.

Versus several billion in damage

• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.

Ditto

• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.

Better for the enviroment and saves money in the long run in terms of cost

• $500 million for state and local fire stations.

Again Fire stations a re important part of infrastructure

• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.

Again versus billions in damages like seen in California this year.

• $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.

Helps reduce crime and foster a work force and ethic..... It is a good thing to have and something that has ben included in pretty much any successful economic recovery program.

• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.

88 million for renovation is nothing on a national scale. It is also something that needs to be done.

• $412 million for CDC buildings and property.

If you don't think the CDC is important or needs resources I really honestly feel for you.

• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.

I am not familiar with this institute so I will not comment.

• $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.

• $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.

• $850 million for Amtrak.

Amtrak is not managed properly and is desperate need of an overhaul the issue is not het money but advancement and management of Amtrak here
• $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.

• $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.

Creates jobs modernize goverment and facilities. Perhaps can even be a more efficient desing. IF the other facilities are being closed money can be made back from the sale. Or used for otehr purposes saving money there.
• $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.

Again this is infrastructure. Govt computers are in a much needed update and the base of any economy is food.

• $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.

Again it can save energy costs down the line. Resulting in less money spent over the long term.


That totals up to over 2% of the bill, and 2% of 820 Billion is ... a heck of a lot of money, over $20 billion, and a damn big molehill. As with the previous ones mentioned, some have merit, but not as part of a stimulus bill. I think there are 3 listed above that I would actually probably keep, the rest needs to go.

I've said it from the start: There's just too much garbage attached to this bill, needless thing that do NOTHING to stimulate the economy. Like, I get that the damn Census is going to cost about 4 billion more than expected, but craft a SEPERATE bill to give the FULL funding needed, as opposed to adding 1 billion here, another billion on the next bill, etc. It's ridiculous, but hey, if they made things that transparent then how could one person run commercials saying they voted FOR something while their opponent runs another commercial saying they voted AGAINST the same damn thing.


A lot of this stuff should of been handled a while ago. But after 8 years of one the most fiscally irresponsible administrations in history. We have to increase spending to correct what he did. Instead of investing with a little bit of foresight and realistic assumptions.

However if you are only capable of asking what will I see tommoro out of this budget or that doesn't affect me so it shouldn't be there. Well you shouldn't think about stuff like this.

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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
redspear wrote:
A lot of this stuff should of been handled a while ago. But after 8 years of one the most fiscally irresponsible administrations in history. We have to increase spending to correct what he did. Instead of investing with a little bit of foresight and realistic assumptions.


Agreed. Although I'm sympathetic to the idea that this and other non-stimulus related spending could be transferred to another bill. I just don't think at this point that 2% either way makes much of a difference. And the bitching and moaning about it is just political theater. So if cutting it shuts the stupid Republican pie-holes, then it might be worth it to deal with it in the general federal budget.


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Post Re: Stimulus Bill
WASHINGTON — Seeking to jump-start the housing market, the Senate added new tax relief for home buyers to its $900 billion economic stimulus bill Wednesday as the legislation moved toward a final vote.

The housing amendment, offered by Sen. Johnny Isakson, R-Ga., represents a victory for Republicans. GOP lawmakers have complained that the package includes few of their priorities for easing the economic crisis, including more help for the housing sector, which has been devastated by foreclosures and the frozen credit market.

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_11629806? ... ost_viewed

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