they wouldn't file chapter 7, they'd file chapter 11. And again, filing for bankruptcy is not failure.

There is a very good chance they might not survive Chapter 11. A lot of the experience I have heard have said that. Also if they go Chapter 7 the stock market will still plunge and could the country into a depression. The good news is Bush is thinking about using the 15 million left from the bailout money to give to GM and Chrysler. I think that would be the best option right now.

How do you know that the market as a whole will plunge if they fail? The market seems to already have factored in the possible collapse of them.

As of now:

GM worth $3.95 per share.
Ford worth $3
Chrysler is owned by an Equity Firm.
Delphi Corp worth $0.0260 (Supplier and already in bankruptcy)
Visteon Corporation worth $0.440 (Supplier)

Economists are betting the stock market will take a huge dive if they go under. If they go under I will say right now the U.S is heading for its second depression.

We have had more than one depression. But maybe, maybe not as to the current recession turning more sour.

Well I meant in modern memory the one in the 30's was the last. The only other one though Martin Van Buren was President.

This is a great link:

http://laborpains.org/2008/12/12/22-pou ... gulations/

That's all well and good but it has nothing to do with why the auto companies are failing. It only has to do with why Republicans are against saving them, because they want to bust up the unions.

So in addition to the argument that the banking crisis was the fault of low-income black people, Republicans are now arguing that blue-collar and middle class workers should make LESS money and have fewer benefits. Yeah, good luck with that.

And btw, why were worker wages never part of the discussion in the $700 billion Wall Street bailout?

You keep repeating the same talking points. Yes, the unions are not the only reason why the Big 3 are failing, but they are a big part of it.

As opposed to what? No wages and no benefits? Are you saying that the blue-collar union members are really THAT stupid.

Not that I supported that bailout, but how would you go about regulating wages in a non-union industry? I guess the only way is for the government to take over some of the financial institutions? Well, they did that.

One of the most amazing feats of the corporate media in the past 20 years, is how they got the ordinary working man to hate organized labor - - it really is a splendid work of propoganda!

Umm... you ever think that the ordinary working man has real life experience with organized labor?

the republicans say that the wages should be consistent with the foreign companies. That is something necessary if the companies want to compete. You're telling me you think a person that gets laid off should get full pay and benefits for 2 years? A person who retires still gets full pay and benefits? That's the things that are hurting the auto company greatly.

I like the expression Ralph Nader used to describe the anti-labor strategy - - a "race-to-the-bottom" - - let's see which corporation can beat the third world to paying the lowest wages, with the least benefits, and ultimately the worst human rights...

So is giving their CEOs multi-million dollar salaries while they're running their business into the ground.

i agree

so is making cars nobody wants

so is not updating their business model

there are many reasons.

Right.

What pisses me off are people saying that it is completely, and entirely, the fault of the unions. That's just absurd. The unions didn't make the bad business decisions, and even if you paid them $100 an hour each it wouldn't explain a defecit of billions.

Show me how the DIFFERENCE in what the American car companies are paying in benefits and slightly higher wages vs foreign car companies add up to the $22 BILLION that GM lost last year alone. If you can get there, then you can convince me that wages are what is causing this crisis, or that lower wages and less benefits will in any way help the American companies "compete."

Frankly, I'm to the point now of just saying "Let them." Blaming black people, immigrants, and poor people for America's woes is part of what got Republicans to where they are today, which is a minority regional party of southern white males.

Who is saying that? Certainly not anybody on this forum.

What I and others ARE saying, though is that the union is partially responsible for the Big 3's demise. Nobody is guaranteed a right to work in this country; the UAW's position that it won't renegotiate the contract until 2011 is laughable, considering that the jobs are about to disappear.

how about you learn to fucking read beeble. If you read everything, I said there were many factors hurting the industry. Not just the uaw

My argument is that the union workers have little or nothing to do with the crisis. That's not to say that they can't make concessions or that some of the contract conditions aren't absurd, but YOU are blaming part of the problem on them when they really have nothing to do with it.

Now if YOU learn to fucking read, you'd see this:

"If you can get there, then you can convince me that wages are what is causing this crisis, or that lower wages and less benefits will in any way help the American companies "compete."

If you want to blame "part" of the problem on workers, then show me how cutting their wages and benefits makes American cars more competitive or comes anywhere close to making up GM's $22 billion deficit.

According to the NY Times, the average wage for union workers including benefits is $55. The average wage for non-union workers at domestic plants for Toyota or Honda is $45. That's about $10/hr difference. Explain to me how eliminating that difference helps save the American car industry.

They have stated repeatedly that they are willing to make concessions. But what are they supposed to do? If they agreed to work for free, it wouldn't save the companies they work for.

I agree with Beeble......the main problem is that US-Manufactorers missed 10-20 years in Car Design development and technical stuff. I mean look which company of the three looks the best.....its Ford....and thats because they also made cars for example European City markets. Smaller cars etc.

GM and Chrysler would have had a problem anyway.....now its just comming faster.

Does any one have any efficiency comparisons between Big 3 workers compared to their foreign counterparts operating in the U.S.? For instance average amount of labor per car. That would help in comparing the wages earned by each group of employees.

They've said they're willing to make concessions - in 2011! That's laughable.

What are they supposed to do? Oh, I don't know, work on taking the inefficiencies out of the union contracts?

I really believe that GM is going to bankruptcy sooner or later. Depending on what UAW does, it will be either Chapter 11 or Chapter 7.