What are your thoughts on the seemingly imminent bailout for GM, Chrysler and Ford?

My opinion: it's wrong, it will only exacerbate the problem of relying on the state(expect another bailout in a couple of year's time), and it doesn't address the real issue: the big 3 simply can't make good and desirable cars.

By pushing for it, the Democrats are laying the foundation of getting ousted again in the next 4-6 years.

Do you think that the bankruptcy option will work for them if they run out of cash? Or can they simply go under and be sold as scrap? Ford is doing the best of the 3 atm but even they will supposedly run out of cash sometime in 2009. What will be the overall impact of the auto industry in the states?

I don't know. I don't really want to support it because of how the Big 3 cornered themselves into one niche of the market and then didn't do much about the smaller cars (except Ford ... a little). What angered me too was that they refused to agree to new mileage standards even though all other companies had surpassed what Congress at the time was asking.

At the same time, 2 million potential job losses is a big chunk.

Agreed.

But the sticky wicket here is not the auto companies, which virtually no one cares to save, but the 3 million auto workers and 16 million ancillary workers affected by the Big 3 failure. That's a pretty big complicated problem.

If there was some way to use the $25 billion on them directly, either through works programs, extended unemployment, or retraining, then that's what I'd support.

Seeing as Detroit would be destroyed if this didn't happen... I voted yes.

Regarding the jobs - forcing the Big 3 into bankruptcy (and Ford probably won't go in it) doesn't negate the demand for cars. Yes, there will be a few adjustments, and yes, it's going to hit some families hard, but the jobs will be there one way or the other. Maybe not $40/hr jobs with guaranteed post-retirement benefits, but at some point we have to face the facts - the auto industry in the U.S. is simply not competitive.

The funny thing is that GM has plenty of fuel-efficient cars on the market - in Europe. And I hear they're doing very well there. So it's not like they don't know how to adjust - they just want the profit margins from SUVs to stay here forever.

It's nickels and dimes compared to what they are stuffing in wall street's pockets. So yeah I'm for it, but with some strings on both management and labor.

From what I've read, forcing them into bankruptcy won't work as bankruptcy requires credit-based financing that can't happen now with the credit crisis.

It's a question as to how the failure will play out. How big would the downsizing be? 3 million auto workers out of work in a relatively short time, say 6 months or a year? Will it be most of the workers or just a small percentage.

That, to me, would inform how I'd go with the bailout if at all. 3 million workers isn't just an adjustment. It's a nuclear bomb of devastation on the economy. The entire Bush years have produced only 5 million net jobs. Unemployment is now at 6.5%. It would simply be too much for the economy to absorb, even if the jobs were spread out all over, much less all in one state.

I'd go for a plan to transition those workers to the other foreign car makers, who manufacture many of their cars here anyway, and to transitioning these workers the American auto industry to greener alternatives.

To me, it's about what's best for the workers. They need a safety net, not just for themselves, but for the economy as a whole.

Even though I know it will hurt the economy, I just can't say yes to this.

My attitude is this: Other car companies are doing well. Why is that? Because they are making cars people want. If a business can't undersdtand and accept that, then maybe they should go under.

I also am pissed at businesses who constantly scream "Get the government off our backs! Stop the regulations! Let capitalism work!" and then go crying to the government to save them when they screw up.

The hesitation I have is the effect it will have on all the workers and the economy in general if they go under.

Aren't the companies that are doing well the... foreign ones?

Yes, unfortunately (I say, looking at my Honda Element parked outside).

lol.

They're just ahead of the curve... as most of the rest of the world had already switched to smaller, fuel efficient cars. While us in America were obsessed with ugly huge SUV's.

no. I didn't like the bank bailout, I don't like this one.

Having lived in Michigan until graduating high school, I got to see the high and the beginning of the failure of the automobile industry, it is the companies fault. They had years to change their business structure but decided to stick with things they've been doing for 40 years. I also blame the UAW.

That is entirely my hesitation. Otherwise I don't care if the Big 3 go out of business. They are dinosaurs.

The thing is that many of us KNEW this was going to happen. I had this argument with my dad (an ultra-conservative then) 14 years ago. I said that the auto makers should adapt now (then) and pay the price incrementally, otherwise we'd all be the ones to pay for it in one big lump sum down the road because the auto execs had their heads up their asses. Instead, he and they scoffed at the idea that anything needed to be done at all about our gas guzzling culture, and would mock alternative fuel sources whenever they'd fail.

After 8 years of Bush, he's now basically a commie lib who voted for Obama and thinks everyone in the Bush admin should go to jail and that Al Gore is a hero.

wait ....

i understand the big 3 could go down but they can't just close complete operations can they? i mean you here of buys and mergers and crap like that ... whose to say that everyone involved in this industry will suddenly lose their jobs over and there will be no 2010 models for ford, crysler and GM.

or am icompletely off base?

I say yes only because 25 Billion is NOTHING in digital dollars. It's pennies folks...seriously.

Why all the fuss over this anyway? They gladly handed over 750 BILLION to ONE person. What's wrong with giving 8 BLN a piece to three auto companies. Also, I'd rather these companies stay in "US" hands rather than China or some other entity buying them out.

Besides, we're already the Titanic and sinking fast so we might as well just toss out more fake dollars while it's still worth something.

Yay for fake money!

Speculation is Chinese companies will buy them. It'll be interesting if that happens, given that many of the same republicans who fear China are also against the bailout.

Is there some inherent value in gold, besides what we give it, that I am missing?

Jobs will be shed whether these auto companies get the bailout or not, and I suspect all the money put into them will go to waste. Foreign automakers WILL fill in the hole GM/Ford/Chrysler will leave behind should they perish; it might take a year or two for Toyota, Honda, etc. to step up, but they have the resources to do so. For one thing, they are making cars people actually want to buy, and they operate extensively in the United States already.


I don't see any way for the US car makers to make it out of this mess (which they got themselves into).

I think we have to try. If all three go into liquidation, our country will probably be headed for another depression.

America is already in the initial stage of a depression. I think it's pretty clear now that this is not merely a recession, but a very, very serious one that will stretch well into 2009, possibly 2010.

We still have a credit card crisis looming, the housing market will remain depressed for the rest of this decade, the unemployment rate is inching toward 10%, and deflation is a very real and grave possibility.

The bailout should not happen.

lets not remember the only American made cars that have any real respect are GM made.

Ford are shitboxes and Chryslers are unreliable.

GM and Toyota/Honda, now those are quality cars.

Anyways, companies live by the free market and die by it...

let them burn and let some real companies takeover.

Well they say for each of the BIG One that goes down 2.5 milion jobs are destroyed......so as news say only Ford can handle itself.......so goodbye 5 milion jobs? Not gonna happen....they will bail them out a hundred times......so the question is funny because its gonna happen anyway.......if it works.....well thats another question.

But if they fall apart the Stock Market will take a serious nose dive. We could be looking at it falling under 5000 could be like at a 40 year low or something. That would put it in Depression stage. And then China will buy those companies out. We don't need to let the fucking Chinese get any more powerful.