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 Prop 8 discussion thread: Upheld 
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
No on 8 demonstrations in Los Angeles against a Mormon Temple accused of campaigning for Yes on 8. The L.A. City Attorney has also filed suit against the ban. Check out the B.S. regarding the erroneous claim that 'churches will be threatened with discrimination suits' and the other idiot falsely inserting 'abortion arguments'.
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/ ... 7&src=news

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Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:49 am
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Something that bothers me. My polling place is a meeting room at the local Foursquare Church
and this time on the wall above the booths hung a metalwork of "The Last Supper" which wasn't there in previous elections. I wonder why the vote is being conducted at a church when there are local schools or the rec room at the local park available and whether "The Last Supper" was hung on the wall at "the last minute"?

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Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:04 am
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Here's a discussion of the legal ramifications of Prop 8 (whether it is really an amendment or if it is a revision).

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_02-2008_11_08.shtml#1226036505

It is fairly long.


Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:18 am
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
i think the gay population is much higher than 3% in California.

and i think it is a revision. to revise something, is to go back over something. especially considering gay couples between June and November 4 were able to get married, but now they can't.

an amendment would be something like changing a drug trafficking penalty from 5 years to 10 years, or something to that effect.

anyway, i think there is much hope if it makes it to the CA Supreme Court, considering they were the ones that upheld it.


Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:47 am
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Apparently gays in LA are giving the Mormon church and earful. The Mormon leadership urged its followers to support Prop 8 and ended up funneling $20 million into the campaign.

They were responsible for destroying families and civil rights. They used vicious lies to deceive voters. Now the leadership is requesting "a spirit of mutual respect and civility."

This would be my response to them. FUCK YOU WITH A GIANT DONKEY DICK, YOU FUCKING PIECES OF SHIT.


Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:24 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Beeblebrox wrote:
Apparently gays in LA are giving the Mormon church and earful. The Mormon leadership urged its followers to support Prop 8 and ended up funneling $20 million into the campaign.

They were responsible for destroying families and civil rights. They used vicious lies to deceive voters. Now the leadership is requesting "a spirit of mutual respect and civility."

This would be my response to them. FUCK YOU WITH A GIANT DONKEY DICK, YOU FUCKING PIECES OF SHIT.


Yeah I was there actually. Pretty fun. The LAPD were actually guiding the crowd this time, rather than, oh I dunno... clubbing them senseless?

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Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:25 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Beeblebrox wrote:
Apparently gays in LA are giving the Mormon church and earful. The Mormon leadership urged its followers to support Prop 8 and ended up funneling $20 million into the campaign.

They were responsible for destroying families and civil rights. They used vicious lies to deceive voters. Now the leadership is requesting "a spirit of mutual respect and civility."

This would be my response to them. FUCK YOU WITH A GIANT DONKEY DICK, YOU FUCKING PIECES OF SHIT.


I like what Jon Stewart said about this...

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index ... chucklarry

"The movement has been boosted by television advertising, much of it paid for by the Mormon Church... because if there is one value the Mormon Church has always held dear, it's that marriage must be between one man and.... uh oh"

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Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:58 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Keith's going to do a special comment on this Monday.


Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:03 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
This whole situation is repulsive. The fact the Mormon Church is seriously pulling this "well, it's over now so let's all try to get along" bullshit is infuriating. No doubt my views on religion are clear from my signature, but come on! Mormons set up shop in their own state because of lots and lots of bigotry and hate directed at them, and now that they're powerful enough they go ahead and direct their own brand of hate (Hate?...coming from a--gasp!--Church?!? I won't believe it) to another minority. What's wrong with people? Do they learn anything?

There is no logical, rational reason for anyone to oppose gay marriage. NONE. Massachusetts has somehow still managed to thrive, even with four years of the gays all marrying each other and whatnot. Canada, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Spain have all legalized gay marriage and somehow those countries didn't fall apart. "Traditional" marriage didn't fall apart. The only people gay marriage being legal affects are gay people.

I'm so sick of hearing stuff like "Hey, it's okay. You'll get there eventually" "Calm down, all good things in time" and blah blah blah. Yes, we'll get there, but you know what doesn't invite change? Laying back and accepting the discrimination with a smile. People need to get worked up and passionate for things to get done.

I'm pretty sure damn near all the other minority groups who were denied rights for no reason at all didn't "eventually" get them by quietly thinking to themselves "It's okay...someday". People had to protest, organize, and fucking get things done.

The next jerk who tells me to calm down is getting an earful, and the next douchebag who actually tries to defend this hate legislation is getting my foot up their ass.


Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:29 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
The Mormon opposition is ridiculous and vile, and as an atheist thats actually read the bible it doesn't even fucking support their opposition in my view.

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Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:58 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Groucho wrote:
I like what Jon Stewart said about this...

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index ... chucklarry

"The movement has been boosted by television advertising, much of it paid for by the Mormon Church... because if there is one value the Mormon Church has always held dear, it's that marriage must be between one man and.... uh oh"


Pitch perfect as always. :funny: :funny: :funny:


Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:00 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Sully:

I totally understand the anger, hurt and pain now roiling the gay community and our families, especially in California. But it's important to keep our heads. I've been in the middle of this fight for two decades. It's important to remember that we have never had this level of public support for marriage equality before. In eight years in California alone, the majority in favor of banning marriage equality has gone from 61 to 52 percent. Meanwhile, California's legislature has voted for it, 18,000 couples are legally married in California, and legally comparable (if still unequal) domestic partnerships are available. Very soon, thousands of gay couples will be able to marry in Connecticut. The one state with a history of marriage equality, Massachusetts, is showing how good and positive a reform it is. New York recognizes Massachusetts' civil marriages.

Calm down. We are not experiencing a massive, permanent backlash.

The next generation overwhelmingly backs the right to marry, and there is no sign of cultural reversal, even if we have suffered some electoral set-backs. If Obama has taught us anything, it is to keep our eyes on the prize, and not always to react impulsively to hatred, bigotry or simple ignorance by exaggerating its power over us. We are winning. We lost this one, by an excruciatingly small margin. But the whole point of this movement is education in support of toleration. Even though we lost, we persuaded many of something they barely thought about a short time ago. I am immensely touched by the support of straight readers and all of you, gay and straight, who donated time and money to the No On 8 campaign. We need to remember this as well. And the sight of a small minority having basic equality stripped from them by a religiously-funded majority is itself educational. It has already changed minds. One thing we need to remember is dignity in defeat. That's how it becomes victory.

And we need patience and relentlessness in explaining our lives. And how human they are. It's not fair; we should have it all already. But we don't. And in a democracy, that means persuasion, not fiat.


Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:47 am
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Well the good news is, this has really rallied a lot of the LGBT community to start standing up more for what is right.

There are protests planned across the US on Saturday. I'm organizing the one here in Atlanta.

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Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:00 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Jeff wrote:
Well the good news is, this has really rallied a lot of the LGBT community to start standing up more for what is right.

There are protests planned across the US on Saturday. I'm organizing the one here in Atlanta.


protest?

i don't get it. i understand taking it to vote again, or preparing for next year or whenever the next opportunity is but how do you protest a decision taken through legal and democratic process? everyone had a right to vote to descriminate or not to descriminate on this issue. so what part are you protesting?

thats a serious question.


Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:08 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Magnus wrote:
I have a question: Are civil unions recognized the same as marriages, or is there a difference?


i was wondering that as welll


Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:32 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
MonyTontana wrote:
Jeff wrote:
Well the good news is, this has really rallied a lot of the LGBT community to start standing up more for what is right.

There are protests planned across the US on Saturday. I'm organizing the one here in Atlanta.


protest?

i don't get it. i understand taking it to vote again, or preparing for next year or whenever the next opportunity is but how do you protest a decision taken through legal and democratic process? everyone had a right to vote to descriminate or not to descriminate on this issue. so what part are you protesting?

thats a serious question.


So, if we put it to a vote in say Texas that all Mexican immigrants (legal or not) would be denied marriage licenses, you wouldn't say that is unfair and wrong? There are a lot of people who resent Mexican immigrants in the American south and I bet you that the legislation would have a good chance of passing.

You don't think it would be right for the targeted group to stand up and fight?

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Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:06 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Magnus wrote:
I have a question: Are civil unions recognized the same as marriages, or is there a difference?

Key differences is immigration. You can not bring in your civil partner through immigration but you can if you are married(this is federal level).

Civil Unions can only offer rights in a state level or states that except them. Gay marriage too has this problem because of DOMA.

Also there is no tax benefit at a federal level for Civil Unions but no civil unions allow for social security benefits to be passed on, immigration, or pretty much anything on a federal level.

Civil union benefits also vary from state to state so some states offer more while others basically offer just a name.

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Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:06 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Magnus: the differences are legal. A spouse has more power than the persons family, while under a civil union the persons family has more power. So for instance, in an event someone dies the deceased's family can basically come in and take everything under a civil union. other benefits of marriage include other federal and state benefits through Social Security, sick leave for a sick partner, tax breaks, veterans benefits and things related to insurance. If they had children, they would able to receive family discounts and getting family insurance. Also visiting ur sick partner while they are in hospital would be a nice thing. Also if the partner was a non-US citizen they would able to get US citizenship.

Civil unions aren't entitled to that unless they see a lawyer to arrange a Power of Attorney and a will. And wills are can be contested in court, while the cheaper certificate of marriage can't be contested. so even if the person specified in his/her will that their partner will receive everything in the event of their death, the family of the deceased can challenge that in court.

Personally, it's discrimination at its worse if you ask me. it isn't even positive discrimination.


Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:14 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
the peaceful protests represent a gathering of the gay community to birng light on the recent injustice that passed in CA. The protests themselves won't do much at this point. It's a matter of unifying under one cause, something the gay community has never done on a national level (1969 NYC Stonewall is historic but never really became a national thing). It lays the foundation for what's to come.


Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:58 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Sam wrote:
the peaceful protests represent a gathering of the gay community to birng light on the recent injustice that passed in CA. The protests themselves won't do much at this point. It's a matter of unifying under one cause, something the gay community has never done on a national level (1969 NYC Stonewall is historic but never really became a national thing). It lays the foundation for what's to come.


It took getting beat for them to organize, though. Where were they a month ago? They were resting on their laurels, not believing that this could possibly pass. It wasn't until the Mormons funneled $20 million into the state that the gay community really stood up, and by then it was probably too late.

I'm fine with the protesting, but the ultimate goal here has to be education.


Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:02 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... 9340.story

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger on Sunday expressed hope that the California Supreme Court would overturn Proposition 8, the ballot initiative that outlawed same-sex marriage. He also predicted that the 18,000 gay and lesbian couples who have already wed would not see their marriages nullified by the initiative.

"It's unfortunate, obviously, but it's not the end," Schwarzenegger said in an interview Sunday on CNN. "I think that we will again maybe undo that, if the court is willing to do that, and then move forward from there and again lead in that area."


Does anyone know how the courts could overturn this? I was thinking it could only be done at a federal level, but with DOMA in place, that doesn't seem likely.

Could it be overturned on 1st amendment grounds, since Prop 8 clearly violates the establishment clause?


Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:18 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
I don't know the details about the lawsuits or how it can, if it can, be overturned. I'm not holding my breath on Prop 8.

From my understanding though, we can just propose another amendment next election, right? And if that happens to be our next step if the courts don't go in our favor, I'd say we should wait at least 6 years.

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Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:29 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
The way it gets overturned is under equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. The Supreme Court would have to elevate sexual orientation past quasi-suspect to suspect class (where race, religion, and national origin reside) OR they could use quasi-suspect to strike down the law, though that is harder than the strict scrutiny that suspect classes receive.

I think there are currently 5 votes on the court to strike down the law if a case was litigated in the Federal or State courts and the Supreme Court granted cert. (Kennedy (yes, him) + the "liberal bloc").


Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:48 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
Caius wrote:
The way it gets overturned is under equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. The Supreme Court would have to elevate sexual orientation past quasi-suspect to suspect class (where race, religion, and national origin reside) OR they could use quasi-suspect to strike down the law, though that is harder than the strict scrutiny that suspect classes receive.

I think there are currently 5 votes on the court to strike down the law if a case was litigated in the Federal or State courts and the Supreme Court granted cert. (Kennedy (yes, him) + the "liberal bloc").


Wouldn't that mean striking down DOMA as well?


Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:57 pm
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Post Re: Prop 8 discussion thread: Yes 52%
It would seem likely. The Full Faith and Credit clause would not be an issue anymore and that was probably the main reason for DOMA.

The court usually likes to make the narrowest rulings possible, but I see no other way to keep DOMA if the court was to strike down Prop 8.

The court might wait on a case to litigate the federal aspects in DOMA, but it would be a foregone conclusion that they would strike it down.

However, this is also predicated on the court granting cert. Even if the current court might strike it down, it is still extremely hard to get them to grant cert. Something like 70/7,000 cases get certified AND this would be years down the road, like 5-6 years at the earliest. 4 votes are needed for cert.

I should also mention they'd need to make a Section 1983 claim which both federal and state courts have concurrent jx over. So for the federal court, they wouldn't need to satisfy diversity or $$, which would be a help.


Last edited by Caius on Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:09 pm
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