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Jim Halpert
Stanley Cup
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:52 pm Posts: 6981 Location: Hockey Town
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 Re: Evolution
Beeblebrox wrote: Jim Halpert wrote: Anti-science because she believes in creationism? Yes. If you believe in YEC, then you reject virtually every known science, the scientific method, and reason. You might as well believe in the sun orbiting the earth or a flat earth, as those have about as much scientific validity as YEC does. I'm not talking about belief in God (which I do), which is arational (cannot be proved or disproved), but a belief in origins that is DIRECTLY contradicted by the evidence. It wouldn't be a theory if it was fact.
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:22 pm |
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snack
Extraordinary
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:18 pm Posts: 12159
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 Re: Evolution
Jim Halpert wrote: Beeblebrox wrote: Jim Halpert wrote: Anti-science because she believes in creationism? Yes. If you believe in YEC, then you reject virtually every known science, the scientific method, and reason. You might as well believe in the sun orbiting the earth or a flat earth, as those have about as much scientific validity as YEC does. I'm not talking about belief in God (which I do), which is arational (cannot be proved or disproved), but a belief in origins that is DIRECTLY contradicted by the evidence. It wouldn't be a theory if it was fact. And that right there proves you know nothing about science. Electricity is also a theory. Not a fact also?
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:26 pm |
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Caius
A very honest-hearted fellow
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:02 pm Posts: 4767
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 Re: Evolution
Jim Halpert wrote: Beeblebrox wrote: Jim Halpert wrote: Anti-science because she believes in creationism? Yes. If you believe in YEC, then you reject virtually every known science, the scientific method, and reason. You might as well believe in the sun orbiting the earth or a flat earth, as those have about as much scientific validity as YEC does. I'm not talking about belief in God (which I do), which is arational (cannot be proved or disproved), but a belief in origins that is DIRECTLY contradicted by the evidence. It wouldn't be a theory if it was fact. It is only a "theory" because the tenants of science do not speak in absolutes like religion does.
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:26 pm |
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Beeblebrox
All Star Poster
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:40 pm Posts: 4679
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 Re: Evolution
Jim Halpert wrote: It wouldn't be a theory if it was fact. Jim, all you're doing is perfectly illustrating the deep ignorance of the anti-science Creationists. In scientific terms, a theory is an explanation for observable data. For example, GRAVITY is a theory. Gravity is also a fact. Evolution is a theory. Evolution is also a fact. Heliocentrism is a theory. It is also a fact. Germ THEORY of disease. These are not regarded as "theories" in the colloquial sense that means "hypothesis." As a matter of fact, there is not a single viable alternative scientific theory to evolution to explain the diversity of species on the planet. Not one. Creationism is to evolution what geocentrism is to heliocentrism or what "evil spirits" are to germs. Those "alternatives" are not science. They are voodoo and religious nonsense.
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:30 pm |
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Chippy
KJ's Leading Pundit
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:45 pm Posts: 63026 Location: Tonight... YOU!
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 Re: Evolution
Creationism is the most god awful excuse for ANYTHING.
It's absolutely absurd.
_________________trixster wrote: shut the fuck up zwackerm, you're out of your fucking element trixster wrote: chippy is correct
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:32 pm |
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Anita Hussein Briem
Yes we can call dibs on the mountain guide
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:47 pm Posts: 3290 Location: Houston
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 Re: Evolution
Yes, teaching creationism in classrooms would put us with enlightened places like Iran.
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:49 pm |
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Tyler
Powered By Hate
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm Posts: 7578 Location: Torrington, CT
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 Re: Evolution
Beeblebrox wrote: Jim Halpert wrote: It wouldn't be a theory if it was fact. Jim, all you're doing is perfectly illustrating the deep ignorance of the anti-science Creationists. In scientific terms, a theory is an explanation for observable data. For example, GRAVITY is a theory. Gravity is also a fact. Evolution is a theory. Evolution is also a fact. Heliocentrism is a theory. It is also a fact. Germ THEORY of disease. These are not regarded as "theories" in the colloquial sense that means "hypothesis." As a matter of fact, there is not a single viable alternative scientific theory to evolution to explain the diversity of species on the planet. Not one. Creationism is to evolution what geocentrism is to heliocentrism or what "evil spirits" are to germs. Those "alternatives" are not science. They are voodoo and religious nonsense. I want to host your children. Arkansas education ain't that good, eh?
_________________ It's my lucky crack pipe.
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:29 pm |
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Beeblebrox
All Star Poster
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:40 pm Posts: 4679
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 Re: Evolution
Anton Chigurh wrote: I want to host your children.
Arkansas education ain't that good, eh? Sorry, Anton, I don't understand what you mean.
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:34 pm |
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Tyler
Powered By Hate
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 pm Posts: 7578 Location: Torrington, CT
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 Re: Evolution
Sorry, school's in session and I've slept 10 hours total this week. Basically, you're totally bang-on on evolution and Jim Halpert's education in Arkan-saw clearly wasn't too good.
_________________ It's my lucky crack pipe.
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:44 pm |
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Beeblebrox
All Star Poster
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:40 pm Posts: 4679
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 Re: Evolution
Anton Chigurh wrote: Sorry, school's in session and I've slept 10 hours total this week. Basically, you're totally bang-on on evolution and Jim Halpert's education in Arkan-saw clearly wasn't too good. Evolution is technically part of the Arkansas state curriculum, but many teachers are choosing not to teach it in order to a) avoid the controversy b) because they themselves don't believe it or c) out of pressure from anti-science religious fundamentalists. It's disheartening and frustrating in this day and age that so many (roughly 40% of Americans) can not only still believe in a superstition that is literally as ridiculous and contradicted by science as the Sun revolving around the Earth, but that students should be taught this as if it were as valid as evolution. Even the Vatican accepts evolution as fact. I do take some solace in the fact that when these anti-science lunatics go to court, they tend to lose.
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Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:07 pm |
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Neostorm
All Star Poster
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:48 pm Posts: 4684 Location: Toronto
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 Re: Evolution
I was taught creationism in a symbolic sense where evolution fit within it. So I was taught both, but not a pure sense of creationism. But this was only in my religion classes. When it came time for science, religion was hardly mentioned at all.
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:33 am |
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The Mr Pink
What would Jesus *not* do?
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:55 am Posts: 829 Location: Going Up the Down Escalator
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 Re: Evolution
Evolution only, thank you. Creationism or Intelligent Design as its now called was never discussed when I was in school in the late '70s through late '80s. Personally I feel that the creationist movement was founded by lazy dumbfucks who think book learn'n is hard. Somewhere their god is banging its head against a wall saying where the fuck did I go wrong?
_________________ Top ten of 2008, Updated!
1. Slumdog Millionaire 2. Wall-E 3. Dark Knight 4. In Bruges 5. Tropic Thunder 6. Young @ Heart 7. Mongol 8. The Band's Visit 9. Visitor 10. Iron Man
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:29 am |
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Jim Halpert
Stanley Cup
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:52 pm Posts: 6981 Location: Hockey Town
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 Re: Evolution
Anton Chigurh wrote: Sorry, school's in session and I've slept 10 hours total this week. Basically, you're totally bang-on on evolution and Jim Halpert's education in Arkan-saw clearly wasn't too good. I graduated high school in michigan in a school that was ranked top 250 in the nation
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:19 am |
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Eagle
Site Owner
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:09 pm Posts: 14631 Location: Pittsburgh
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 Re: Evolution
If tomorrow the scientific community got evidence that some superior being started the universe and put evolution into motion, then the theory of evolution would be modified to include those new facts.
I wish I had faith, I wish I was the type of person who could believe there was some higher power, something after this short existence we cling too, but I don't. Yet just because I don't have faith doesn't mean I can't acknowledge the possibility. We know so very little about this universe we reside in, there is no way to possibly rule out the possibility of a higher power, a supreme being.
The fact remains, a vast majority of this world has faith of some kind. I would want my children to be taught tolerance, to be taught the differences in what people believe. I don't want them to be told what is right and what is wrong regarding faith, I want their eyes opened to the cultural and faith based differences among people. If my kids find a faith that I haven't, I don't want someone telling them that they are foolish for believing, and I certainly don't want them growing up thinking it's wrong to have faith.
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:31 pm |
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Beeblebrox
All Star Poster
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:40 pm Posts: 4679
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 Re: Evolution
Eagle wrote: IYet just because I don't have faith doesn't mean I can't acknowledge the possibility. We know so very little about this universe we reside in, there is no way to possibly rule out the possibility of a higher power, a supreme being. Faith in a higher power is irrelevant to the evolution debate. Most scientists believe in God. God is arational, not provable either way. Creationism, however, has been disproved by virtually every known science. Every branch of science, from biology to geology to astronomy, verifies that the Earth and the Universe in it is billions of years old. And evolution is similarly backed up by mountains and mountains of evidence. Believing in Creationism is no different, scientifically, of believing that the Earth is flat. Belief in God is irrelevant to believing that the Earth is flat or that the Sun revolves around the Earth. Those are directly contradicted by science. So is Creationism.
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:35 pm |
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Eagle
Site Owner
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:09 pm Posts: 14631 Location: Pittsburgh
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 Re: Evolution
Yes, yes. You mentioned that before, and for the most part, I agree.
I suppose I don't see the harm in having a child learn the various creation stories for each religion, what the differences are between what Christians believe vs. what Muslims believe vs. what Buddhists believe etc.
Just as you can say most scientists believe in God, you can just as easily say that most Christians don't believe we all descended from Adam and Eve. I think you will find most believers now a day don't believe in the literal translation of many of their stories, rather, the symbolical meaning that God, or some higher power, played a role in creation.
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:42 pm |
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Beeblebrox
All Star Poster
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:40 pm Posts: 4679
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 Re: Evolution
Eagle wrote: I suppose I don't see the harm in having a child learn the various creation stories for each religion, what the differences are between what Christians believe vs. what Muslims believe vs. what Buddhists believe etc. You continue to bark up the wrong tree. No one is arguing that students shouldn't be taught appreciation of various religious beiefs (although I can almost guarantee you that Creationist Chistianists would object to their children being taught Islam). The objection is to teaching these myths as SCIENCE in SCIENCE CLASS, which is what Creationists are advocating. They not only believe that the Earth is 6000 years old, but that this is as valid a scientific theory as evolution. They are flat out wrong. Quote: I think you will find most believers now a day don't believe in the literal translation of many of their stories, rather, the symbolical meaning that God, or some higher power, played a role in creation. 40% of Americans believe that the Earth is 6000 years old. That's a travesty.
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:51 pm |
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Eagle
Site Owner
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:09 pm Posts: 14631 Location: Pittsburgh
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 Re: Evolution
Where are you getting that stat from?
In any event, I think education as a whole in this country is a travesty. And I agree, it probably shouldn't be taught in a science class, rather a world cultures type class, but it should be taught. Diversity is a beautiful thing, and it shouldn't be hidden because of the backwards irrational fears of a few.
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:05 pm |
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Beeblebrox
All Star Poster
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:40 pm Posts: 4679
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 Re: Evolution
Eagle wrote: Where are you getting that stat from? Here's one source: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/natio ... nted=printQuote: And I agree, it probably shouldn't be taught in a science class Probably? Quote: Diversity is a beautiful thing, and it shouldn't be hidden About 80% of Americans are Christians. Who's hiding anything?
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:12 pm |
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Eagle
Site Owner
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:09 pm Posts: 14631 Location: Pittsburgh
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 Re: Evolution
I see nothing in there saying that 40% of Americans believe the earth is 6000 years old. Did I miss it?
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:25 pm |
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Beeblebrox
All Star Poster
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:40 pm Posts: 4679
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 Re: Evolution
Eagle wrote: I see nothing in there saying that 40% of Americans believe the earth is 6000 years old. Did I miss it? The poll found that 42 percent of respondents held strict creationist views, agreeing that "living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time."In these polls, "strict creationist views" means the earth was created within the last 10,000 years. Here's another source: http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htmNewsweek poll : "Which one of the following statements come closest to your views about the origin and development of human beings? Humans developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process. OR, Humans developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process. OR, God created humans pretty much in the present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so."
Created In Present Form - 48%Gallup poll: Created In Present Form within the last 10,000 years - 48%[/i] CBS News poll : Created In Present Form - 53% Harris poll: "Do you think human beings developed from earlier species or not?" - Did not 54% NBC News poll: ""Which do you think is more likely to actually be the explanation for the origin of human life on Earth" - Biblical account, created in 6 days - 44%
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:43 pm |
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Eagle
Site Owner
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:09 pm Posts: 14631 Location: Pittsburgh
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 Re: Evolution
You should know better. Changing even the way a question is asked can dramatically change the results of a survey, let alone you modifying everything to fit your talking points.
While the two questions may seem similar, they are different questions. So are we making up statistics now?
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:13 pm |
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Corpse
Don't Dream It, Be It
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:45 pm Posts: 37162 Location: The Graveyard
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 Re: Evolution
Neither was actually taught, though my Earth Science and Biology teacher in High School would discuss Evoltion from time to time, but that's it.
_________________Japan Box Office “Gods are great ... but the heart is greater. For it is from our hearts they come, and to our hearts they shall return.” “We were like gods at the dawning of the world, & our joy was so bright we could see nothing else but the other.” “There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.” “You have to pretend you get an endgame. You have to carry on like you will; otherwise, you can't carry on at all.” "Paper is dead without words / Ink idle without a poem / All the world dead without stories."
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:30 pm |
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Beeblebrox
All Star Poster
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:40 pm Posts: 4679
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 Re: Evolution
Eagle wrote: You should know better. Changing even the way a question is asked can dramatically change the results of a survey, let alone you modifying everything to fit your talking points.
While the two questions may seem similar, they are different questions. So are we making up statistics now? First of all, you accusing me of making things up is about the most hypocritical thing said on these boards...ever. Second, the way the question is asked is the way I said it was asked. Do you believe that God created the earth in its present form within the last 10,000 years. I'm not even sure what you're disputing about that, other than me saying 6000 years instead of 10,000. Third, what could you possibly be trying to prove by denying these surveys? The case is pretty clear that nearly half of Americans believe that the Earth was created by God within the last 10,000 years. Do you have ANY actual reason to dispute this other than your usual gainsaying?
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:33 pm |
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Eagle
Site Owner
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:09 pm Posts: 14631 Location: Pittsburgh
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 Re: Evolution
Who knows, maybe half of Americans do believe something to that effect. I had just never seen an actual poll to that effect (not that I wouldn't believe it).
I was just surprised when I looked at that article and saw that you had embellished the facts to fit your talking point, which made me chuckle, making up statistics, horray! You need to read up on scientific polls, maybe take a statistics class, because what you did totally nullifies the percentages you are using.
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:14 pm |
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