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 Georgia and Ossetia 
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
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Last edited by Mr. R on Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:37 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Like you said, it's not the one thing.

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Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:42 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
I wonder how much of this conflict really has to do with the Caspian sea oil pipeline and who is going to control that trade.
Quote:
While it has no significant oil or gas reserves of its own, Georgia is a key transit point for oil from the Caspian region destined for Europe and the United States. Crucially, it is the only practical route from this increasingly important producer region that avoids both Russia and Iran.

The 1,770-kilometre (1,100mile) Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) pipeline, which cost $3 billion (£1.55 billion) to build and was partly underwritten by British taxpayers, entered full service last year. It is the world’s second-long-est oil pipeline and pumps about a million barrels a day from Baku, on the coast of the Caspian Sea in Azerbaijan, to Yumurtalik, on Turkey’s Mediterranean coast, where it is loaded on to su-pertankers. The route also avoids the congested Bosphorus shipping lane.

About 250 kilometres of the route passes through Georgia, with parts of it running only 55 kilometres from South Ossetia. It also runs close to another secessionist Georgian region, Abkhazia.
....

The threat of another attack by separatists in Georgia is very real. Georgian rebels in the breakaway regions have threatened to sabotage the pipeline in the past.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article4488829.ece


Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:47 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Like I said, but not the one thing...

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Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:51 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
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Last edited by Mr. R on Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:58 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Trust is a funny thing. People wonder why Chinese can be brutally cynical -- just look at history.

Regarding the pipeline, I don't see how it's all that relevant. Occupying South Ossetia, if anything, would make the security threat worse.

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Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:04 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
I doubt many people trust the US either though.

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Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:06 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Rumpelschtiltzchen wrote:
Anton Chigurh wrote:
That's because internationally nobody trusts Russia.

Do you think Russia trusts anyone after it was betrayed so many times? One of our greatest military commanders, generalissimus Alexander Suvorov once said: "Russia has only two real friends: Russian army and Russian fleet". It was 250 years ago.

Do you know what was the time when everyone loved and trusted Russia most? 1990s. We lived in shit. Weak economy, weak army, fear everywhere, country on its knees so that even its citizens are ashamed to live there, and foreign countries getting resources for free. So thanks, no.



That fear came out of the Cold War. The Soviet Union's leadership caused that so can't really blame people for still fearing them. They see the govt. taking rights away like freedom of the press and get very concerned. That is my concern and I don't trust them either. I am not sure if I trust Georgia either and because that I say the U.S should stay out of it, except trying to discuss it through the UN.


Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:06 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Misutaa wrote:
I doubt many people trust the US either though.

Ask Iran. Americans are as brutal of manipulators as anybody else.

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Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:08 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
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Last edited by Mr. R on Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:13 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
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Last edited by Mr. R on Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:37 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Rumpel, what's with the rhetoric? Mini-Hitler? Nazis? Killing everyone in South Ossetia?

Come on now. South Ossetia is not recognized as an independent state by any country in the world - not even by Russia. It is considered a part of Georgia. Not to say that the current incursion was warranted, but Russia's hands in this aren't clean either. Please don't tell me that Russia's only interest in this is protecting its citizens and it has nothing to do with its imperial ambitions.

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Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:40 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Taiwan is not recognized either, but that does not mean Taiwan is an independent country for practical purposes. North Ossetia is part of Russia; with Ossetia split in two, it will always be messy.

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Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:46 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Anita Hussein Briem wrote:
Taiwan is not recognized either, but that does not mean Taiwan is an independent country for practical purposes. North Ossetia is part of Russia; with Ossetia split in two, it will always be messy.

Taiwan would be a much bigger clusterfuck if anything started to go down there :shock:

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Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:49 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Krem wrote:
Anita Hussein Briem wrote:
Taiwan is not recognized either, but that does not mean Taiwan is an independent country for practical purposes. North Ossetia is part of Russia; with Ossetia split in two, it will always be messy.

Taiwan would be a much bigger clusterfuck if anything started to go down there :shock:

I'm glad it was South Ossetia that went wrong on Olympics day, and not Taiwan. :funny: With that quagmire, the strategy of waiting a century and hoping nothing goes wrong in the meanwhile might just work.

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Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:50 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Rumpelschtiltzchen wrote:
Jedi Master Carr wrote:
That fear came out of the Cold War. The Soviet Union's leadership caused that so can't really blame people for still fearing them. They see the govt. taking rights away like freedom of the press and get very concerned. That is my concern and I don't trust them either. I am not sure if I trust Georgia either and because that I say the U.S should stay out of it, except trying to discuss it through the UN.

There was no Soviet Union 250 years ago. So it's not the reason. The reason is that some people don't want to take their head out of the ass and start thinking about mutual benefits, but want everything for themselves for free. How come it is more justified to locate the radars and rockets to protect Europe against Iran's threat in Poland and Czech republic than in the South of Russia, on Caucasus, right next to Iran? How much trust of those who can't be trusted is worth?

Jedi Master Carr wrote:
They see the govt. taking rights away like freedom of the press and get very concerned.

They see it where? In Russia or in Western or pro-Western media writing about Russia? There's a lot of talks about opposition being suppressed. I say BULLSHIT. Who would they like more, communists, nationalists, radicals? May be neonazis? They are also opposition and have their own party (although forbidden)... Or those democrats of the 1990s, who can't decide who of them is better suited for power, and lost all their supporters? One organization which screamed most about 'numerous violations' during elections didn't even sent its representatives to the elections they were criticizing. The thing is that no matter what - Russia is always bad.
If the media is so concerned, why, for instance, they don't care about UK hiding criminals and terrorists (Berezovsky, Zakaev)?


Nobody was scared of Russia 250 years ago. Russia was considered third rate by all of Europe and looked down upon. Napoleon thought that conquering Russia would be a cake walk. Even after Napoleon's defeat, no one feared Russia. Both during WW I and WW II, Germany invaded it. Russia was only feared after WW II. The west spread its propaganda about the evil Soviet Union (justified or not). So I don't really why you bring that up because the reason people didn't cooperate with Russia then was more that they looked down upon them. There is still fear in the west about Russia and it relates to the Cold War. The animosity won't go away that easy like it or not. Admittedly, tensions have calmed enough where we are at least not at each others throats.
About the freedom issue, that bothers me because I just see that as one step towards a totalitarian regime Of course my worries aren't just with Russia but it bothers me with things in England where they have cameras everywhere or the crap the Bush Administration have done in the last 8 years taking away some of our freedoms.


Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:52 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
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Last edited by Mr. R on Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:53 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Anita Hussein Briem wrote:
Krem wrote:
Anita Hussein Briem wrote:
Taiwan is not recognized either, but that does not mean Taiwan is an independent country for practical purposes. North Ossetia is part of Russia; with Ossetia split in two, it will always be messy.

Taiwan would be a much bigger clusterfuck if anything started to go down there :shock:

I'm glad it was South Ossetia that went wrong on Olympics day, and not Taiwan. :funny: With that quagmire, the strategy of waiting a century and hoping nothing goes wrong in the meanwhile might just work.


I don't see anything happening with Taiwan any time soon. China seems to ignore it now.


Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:55 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Misutaa wrote:
McCain shouldn't get his uneducated self involved in this.


Well, while I wasn't too happy with the statement McCain made, Obama's was no better. To be honest, I would have hoped one of these two could have come up with something better, instead they both mailed it in. Sad really.

Obama's statement:

Quote:
I strongly condemn the outbreak of violence in Georgia, and urge an immediate end to armed conflict. Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full scale war. Georgia’s territorial integrity must be respected. All sides should enter into direct talks on behalf of stability in Georgia, and the United States, the United Nations Security Council, and the international community should fully support a peaceful resolution to this crisis.



Obama took the tract the White House took, and it's the better tract. (Not to be mistaken with what should have been said, but still, far better than McCain) I'm beginning to remember why I disliked McCain when he ran against Bush years ago ...

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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
So does South Ossetia want to be part of Russia or independent?


Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:08 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Beeblebrox wrote:
So does South Ossetia want to be part of Russia or independent?



It really isn't about Ossetia at all...it's more about Georgia and it wanting to take Ossetia as part of it's own country.

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Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:10 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
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Last edited by Mr. R on Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:15 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
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Last edited by Mr. R on Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:23 pm
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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Misutaa wrote:
Beeblebrox wrote:
So does South Ossetia want to be part of Russia or independent?



It really isn't about Ossetia at all...it's more about Georgia and it wanting to take Ossetia as part of it's own country.


I think it's pretty obvious what Georgia wants. I was just wondering what South Ossetia wanted nationally. If they want to be part of Russia and Russia wants them, then I don't see how Georgia wins. If they want to be part of Russia and Russia doesn't want them, then that's tougher for all sides. Russia has to fight for another country's independence rather than fighting to gain control of what it regards as its own territory.


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Post Re: Georgia and Ossetia
Rumpelschtiltzchen wrote:
it was unable to get its independence officially and get international recognition. Other than that it's a separate sovereign country, just like Georgia.


What sort of effect would international recognition, were it granted today, have on the current conflict, I wonder.


Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:43 pm
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