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 Why Hillary mathematically cannot win 
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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Shad wrote:
I'm curious though, what would you want to happen if prior to the convention, it became clear beyond dispute that Clinton had garnered more overall votes with Obama having more delegates. Because I remember you being very vocal about the stolen election of 2000 and being heavily critical of the electoral system.


1. That's why I was asking about the caucuses and whether the "popular votes" counted them too. If not, then by going only by the popular vote means ignoring the states that have caucuses, and that doesn't seem fair.

2. I am critical of the electoral college, but you need to separate that from my complaint about the 2000 election. The electoral college should be gotten rid of, but while it is the system we use, it should be followed. You know the rules before you go into it.

As far as cacuses go, it's different, because caucuses are used by the parties to choose their candidates. Parties can decide for themselves how to do so, of course. I personally prefer primaries, but if they use caucuses then that's the rules all parties agreed to use when they started. We choose our candiadtes based on delegates, and Hillary knew that going on.

The 2000 election was stolen not by the electoral college but by the Supreme Court which did not allow the votes to be counted in Florida. (It was also stolen by the Florida Republicans who purged many thousands off the registration rolls who should have been able to vote, plus other tricks which are well documented.) So that's a separate issue from the electoral college.

If Clinton is ahead by popular votes only, well, that makes it harder for the superdelegates to ignore the will of the people, I agree. But I also disagree with the concept of superdelegates!

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Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:56 pm
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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Ericka wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised with a near 20 point win in PA for Clinton. She literally has the entire state behind her. Both majors of PITT and PHILI (the places Obama had to do well to match her sure wins in rural areas). Their support of her is going to make it tough for Obama in the urban areas now. The GOV of PA, a popular and very active politician. And John Murtha has endoresed Clinton too. And the demographics are nearly ideal for Clinton. It's not going to be like OH with Obama winning big in places like Cleveland and Columbus to help couter Clinton winning in all the rural areas. That was enough for Obama to lose by 10 and no more, but PA is going to be far more difficult for him given he has no support there.


Given all those advantages then if she doesn't beat him by more than 10 points or so, it will be viewed as a loss.

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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Yep, it looks like it may very be all over but the crying for Clinton now...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9149.html

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One big fact has largely been lost in the recent coverage of the Democratic presidential race: Hillary Rodham Clinton has virtually no chance of winning.

Her own campaign acknowledges there is no way that she will finish ahead in pledged delegates. That means the only way she wins is if Democratic superdelegates are ready to risk a backlash of historic proportions from the party’s most reliable constituency.

Unless Clinton is able to at least win the primary popular vote — which also would take nothing less than an electoral miracle — and use that achievement to pressure superdelegates, she has only one scenario for victory. An African-American opponent and his backers would be told that, even though he won the contest with voters, the prize is going to someone else.

People who think that scenario is even remotely likely are living on another planet.

As it happens, many people inside Clinton’s campaign live right here on Earth. One important Clinton adviser estimated to Politico privately that she has no more than a 10 percent chance of winning her race against Barack Obama, an appraisal that was echoed by other operatives.

In other words: The notion of the Democratic contest being a dramatic cliffhanger is a game of make-believe

The real question is why so many people are playing. The answer has more to do with media psychology than with practical politics.

Journalists have become partners with the Clinton campaign in pretending that the contest is closer than it really is. Most coverage breathlessly portrays the race as a down-to-the-wire sprint between two well-matched candidates, one only slightly better situated than the other to win in August at the national convention in Denver.

One reason is fear of embarrassment. In its zeal to avoid predictive reporting of the sort that embarrassed journalists in New Hampshire, the media — including Politico — have tended to avoid zeroing in on the tough math Clinton faces.

Avoiding predictions based on polls even before voters cast their ballots is wise policy. But that's not the same as drawing sober and well-grounded conclusions about the current state of a race after millions of voters have registered their preferences.

The antidote to last winter's flawed predictions is not to promote a misleading narrative based on the desired but unlikely story line of one candidate.

There are other forces also working to preserve the notion of a contest that is still up for grabs.

One important, if subliminal, reason is self-interest. Reporters and editors love a close race — it’s more fun and it’s good for business.

The media are also enamored of the almost mystical ability of the Clintons to work their way out of tight jams, as they have done for 16 years at the national level. That explains why some reporters are inclined to believe the Clinton campaign when it talks about how she’s going to win on the third ballot at the Democratic National Convention in August.

That’s certainly possible — and, to be clear, we’d love to see the race last that long — but it’s folly to write about this as if it is likely.

It’s also hard to overstate the role the talented Clinton camp plays in shaping the campaign narrative, first by subtly lowering the bar for the performance necessary to remain in the race, and then by keeping the focus on Obama’s relationships with a political fixer and a controversial pastor in Illinois.

But even some of Clinton’s own advisers now concede that she cannot win unless Obama is hit by a political meteor. Something that merely undermines him won't be enough. It would have to be some development that essentially disqualifies him.

Simple number-crunching has shown the long odds against Clinton for some time.

In the latest Associated Press delegate count, Obama leads with 1,406 pledged delegates to Clinton’s 1,249. Obama’s lead is likely to grow, as it did with county conventions last weekend in Iowa, as later rounds of delegates are apportioned from caucuses he has already won.

The Democratic Party has 794 superdelegates, the party insiders who get to vote on the nomination in addition to the delegates chosen by voters. According to Politico's latest tally, Clinton has 250 and Obama has 212. That means 261 are uncommitted, and 71 have yet to be named.

An analysis by Politico's Avi Zenilman shows that Clinton’s lead in superdelegates has shrunk by about 60 in the past month. And it found Clinton is roughly tied among House members, senators and governors — the party’s most powerful elite.

Clinton had not announced a new superdelegate commitment since the March 4 primaries, until the drought was broken recently by Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) and West Virginia committeeman Pat Maroney.

Clintonistas continue to talk tough. Phil Singer, the Clinton campaign’s deputy communications director, told reporters on a conference call Friday that the Obama campaign “is in hot water” and is “seeing the ground shift away from them.”

Mark Penn, the campaign’s chief strategist, maintained that it’s still “a hard-fought race between two potential nominees” and that other factors could come into play at the convention besides the latest delegate tally — “the popular vote, who will have won more delegates from primaries [as opposed to caucuses], who will be the stronger candidate against McCain.”

But let’s assume a best-case scenario for Clinton, one where she wins every remaining contest with 60 percent of the vote (an unlikely outcome since she has hit that level in only three states so far — her home state of New York, Rhode Island and Arkansas).

Even then, she would still be behind Obama in delegates.

There are 566 pledged delegates up for grabs in upcoming contests. Those delegates come from Pennsylvania (158), Guam (4) North Carolina (115), Indiana (72), West Virginia (28), Kentucky (51), Oregon (52), Puerto Rico (55), Montana (16) and South Dakota (15).

If Clinton won 60 percent of those delegates, she would get 340 delegates to Obama's 226. Under that scenario — and without revotes in Michigan and Florida — Obama would still lead in delegates by 1,632 to 1,589.

The only remote possibility of a win in delegates would come if revotes were held in Florida and Michigan — which, again, would take a political miracle. If Clinton won 60 percent of the delegates in both states, she would win 188 delegates and Obama would win 125. Clinton would then lead among pledged delegates, 1,777 to 1,757.

The other elephant in the room for Clinton is that Obama is almost certain to win North Carolina, with its high percentage of African-American voters, and also is seen as extremely strong in Oregon.

Harold Ickes, an icon of the Democratic Party who is Clinton’s chief delegate strategist, points out that every previous forecast about this race has been faulty.

Asked about the Obama campaign’s contention that it’s mathematically impossible for Clinton to win, Ickes replied: “They can’t count. At the end of it, even by the Obama campaign’s prediction, neither candidate will have enough delegates to be nominated.

This is true, as a matter of math. But even the Clinton campaign’s own best-case scenario has her finishing behind Obama when all the nominating contests are over.

“She will be close to him but certainly not equal to him in pledged delegates,” a Clinton adviser said. “When you add the superdelegates on top of it, I’ll think she’ll still be behind him somewhat in total delegates — but very, very close.”

The total gap is likely to be 75 to 110, the adviser said.

That means Clinton would need either some of those pledged delegates to switch their support — which technically they can do, though it would be unlikely — or for the white-dominated group of superdelegates to join forces with her to topple Obama.

To foster doubt about Obama, Clinton supporters are using a whisper and pressure campaign to make an 11th-hour argument to party insiders that he would be a weak candidate in November despite his superior standing at the moment.

“All she has left is the electability argument,” a Democratic official said. "It’s all wrapped around: Is there something that makes him ultimately unelectable?”

But the audience for that argument, the superdelegates, will not easily overturn the will of the party’s voters. And in fact, a number of heavyweight Democrats are looking at the landscape and laying the groundwork to dissuade Clinton from trying to overturn the will of the party rank and file.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), who has not endorsed either candidate, appears to be among them. She told Bloomberg Television that superdelegates should "respect for what has been said by the people.” And she told ABC’s “This Week” that it would be “harmful to the Democratic Party” if superdelegates overturn the outcome of elections.

A Democratic strategist said that given the unlikelihood of prevailing any other way, Clinton now must “scare” superdelegates “who basically just want to win.”

The strategist said Clinton aides are now relying heavily on the controversy over Obama’s retiring minister, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, to sow new seeds of doubt.

“This issue is the first thing that’s come along that I think is potentially fatal to his electability argument,” the strategist said.

“They’re looking ahead and saying: Is it possible this thing is just going to drip, drip, drip, drip — more video? Where does that leave us if he’s our presumptive nominee and he’s limping into the convention and the Republicans are just read to go on him, double-barreled?”

The strategist also said Clinton’s agents are making more subtle pitches.

“I’ve heard people start to say: Have you looked at the vote in Ohio really carefully? See how that breaks down for him. What does that portend?” said the strategist. “Then they point to Pennsylvania: In electorally important battleground states, if he is essentially only carrying heavy African-American turnout in high-performing African-American districts and the Starbucks-sipping, Volvo-driving liberal elite, how does he carry a state like Pennsylvania?”

Her advisers say privately that the nominee will be clear by the end of June. At the same time, they recognize that the nominee probably is clear already.

What has to irk Clintons’ aides is that they felt she might finally have him on the ropes, bruised badly by the Wright fight and wobbly in polls. But the bell rang long ago in the minds of too many voters.

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Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:15 pm
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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Groucho wrote:
Ericka wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised with a near 20 point win in PA for Clinton. She literally has the entire state behind her. Both majors of PITT and PHILI (the places Obama had to do well to match her sure wins in rural areas). Their support of her is going to make it tough for Obama in the urban areas now. The GOV of PA, a popular and very active politician. And John Murtha has endoresed Clinton too. And the demographics are nearly ideal for Clinton. It's not going to be like OH with Obama winning big in places like Cleveland and Columbus to help couter Clinton winning in all the rural areas. That was enough for Obama to lose by 10 and no more, but PA is going to be far more difficult for him given he has no support there.


Given all those advantages then if she doesn't beat him by more than 10 points or so, it will be viewed as a loss.


I agree.

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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
The reason super delegates exist to ensure that the most electible candidate is the nominee. Sooo.. super delegates, if they do their real job, will be to choose that person. All indications is that Hillary could be that person. So despite that long little article, the race is still pretty much alive. It ain't over til the First Lady wins.


Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:31 am
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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
I don't blame her for fighting it out, but it is one hell of an uphill fight.


Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:56 am
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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Sam wrote:
The reason super delegates exist to ensure that the most electible candidate is the nominee. Sooo.. super delegates, if they do their real job, will be to choose that person. All indications is that Hillary could be that person. So despite that long little article, the race is still pretty much alive. It ain't over til the First Lady wins.


The delegate count and states won say otherwise. Once Obama reaches 1600 delegates she won't catch him there. If Hillary wants to stay in the race then f her. She's only prolonging the inevitable while contuining to try and weaken the future nominee (whose nomination is obvious to everyone but clintonistas). She isn't going to be VP at this point so why is she even bothering. There isn't any chance the super delegates are going to side with her if she doesn't have delegates or popular vote. It Just Isn't Happening.

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Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:07 am
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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
She could still easily win popular vote.

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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
:|

No, no she coudn't. Its possible, but farrrr from "easy".

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Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:34 pm
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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
I overheard my wife in the other room just now -- the phone calls are starting! Hillary's campaign called for her and when she said she was voting for Obama, the woman on the other end of the phone started insulting Obama and saying Heidi should vote for Hillary because Obama isn't qualified! Heidi then said "But I don't like the way she is running her campaign" and the woman said she didn't know what she was talking about. It degenerated from there.

Oh yeah, that will convince someone to vote for your candidate!

Mind you, I have worked on many campaigns and I know that supporters can sometime go overboard during phone calls, but they should all be instructed to "follow the script" and never insult the voter on the phone!

Sheesh!

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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Sam wrote:
The reason super delegates exist to ensure that the most electible candidate is the nominee. Sooo.. super delegates, if they do their real job, will be to choose that person. All indications is that Hillary could be that person. So despite that long little article, the race is still pretty much alive. It ain't over til the First Lady wins.


To me if that happens the black voters will stay home. They will call Hillary a racist and the convention will be like 68 or 54 which will lead to McCain winning in a landslide. If Hillary wants McCain to be president then she should keep on running because it is becoming more and more likely with every passing day. I really don't care for either one of them and I hope they both screw themselves for the future. If it happens the democrats need to either talk Al Gore into running again or maybe the economy will get so bad that 1/3 of the population will be the poor base John Edwards needs to win :p


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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Groucho wrote:
I overheard my wife in the other room just now -- the phone calls are starting! Hillary's campaign called for her and when she said she was voting for Obama, the woman on the other end of the phone started insulting Obama and saying Heidi should vote for Hillary because Obama isn't qualified! Heidi then said "But I don't like the way she is running her campaign" and the woman said she didn't know what she was talking about. It degenerated from there.

Oh yeah, that will convince someone to vote for your candidate!

Mind you, I have worked on many campaigns and I know that supporters can sometime go overboard during phone calls, but they should all be instructed to "follow the script" and never insult the voter on the phone!

Sheesh!

From what I have heard, the Clinton phone bankers are much ruder in general. They seem free to use Obama's name as many times as they wish, whereas the Obama script instructs the caller not to mention Clinton by name. Then of course, many of the Clinton callers are pathologically angry old women.

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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Sam wrote:
The reason super delegates exist to ensure that the most electible candidate is the nominee. Sooo.. super delegates, if they do their real job, will be to choose that person. All indications is that Hillary could be that person. So despite that long little article, the race is still pretty much alive. It ain't over til the First Lady wins.

That is incorrect. The reason superdelegates exist is to break a plurality scenario where three or more strong candidates exist. Just because supers can overturn the voters' decision does not mean that is their main purpose.

Since Obama is by most measures the more electable nominee, by virtue of facing a smaller rebellion upon nomination and having stronger organizational ability, the choice should be a no-brainer. What Clinton supporters use for excuses are not logical or reasonable at all; it all boils down to wishful thinking, a laundry list of contrived technicalities. Electoral college? Anybody that stoops to that level is a sorry human being, Evan Bayh included.

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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Angela Merkel wrote:
Since Obama is by most measures the more electable nominee, by virtue of facing a smaller rebellion upon nomination and having stronger organizational ability, the choice should be a no-brainer. What Clinton supporters use for excuses are not logical or reasonable at all; it all boils down to wishful thinking, a laundry list of contrived technicalities. Electoral college? Anybody that stoops to that level is a sorry human being, Evan Bayh included.


Agreed.

If nothing else, you'd think the democrats would want to nominate the guy who has 10 times more money still sitting in his bank account to use against the Republicans, and who built an organization from scratch to beat the insider with years of experience and support, and who the Republicans don't want to run against.

It's kind of strange to me that the Hillary supporters have convinced themselves that she is the stronger candidate despite all the evidence to the contrary.

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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Angela Merkel wrote:
Then of course, many of the Clinton callers are pathologically angry old women.

QFT - - No woman hate on this board! :roll:


Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:39 am
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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
he is right; hillarys backers are all old bitchy feminest who demand a woman be president. i dont see the black panthers workign for barack, do you?????

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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Groucho wrote:
I overheard my wife in the other room just now -- the phone calls are starting! Hillary's campaign called for her and when she said she was voting for Obama, the woman on the other end of the phone started insulting Obama and saying Heidi should vote for Hillary because Obama isn't qualified! Heidi then said "But I don't like the way she is running her campaign" and the woman said she didn't know what she was talking about. It degenerated from there.

Oh yeah, that will convince someone to vote for your candidate!

Mind you, I have worked on many campaigns and I know that supporters can sometime go overboard during phone calls, but they should all be instructed to "follow the script" and never insult the voter on the phone!

Sheesh!


Oh groucho, get that on tape next time and give copies to the news media.

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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
oh, just for clarity, Obama cannot mathematicaly win either in case there was any doubt.

You guys make it sound like he has this huge, commanding lead as if 75% of the country likes him and only 25% like Hillary. The popular vote is quite close. If you count MI & FL (which Obama doesn't want to for obvious reasons), it's even closer. I don't see why Hillary should just back off, especially if she's moving up in the polls. PA is hers. NC is closing in. IN is mostly a republican state so it doesn't really matter, but she could also gain some ground there.

The point being that both are close and quite frankly both have a shot at the nomination at this point. Everything that you say about Hillary can be said about Obama. Plain and simple.


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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Sam wrote:
oh, just for clarity, Obama cannot mathematicaly win either in case there was any doubt.


Well, true, but he should certainly end up with more delegates, more popular votes, and more states won.

Sam wrote:
You guys make it sound like he has this huge, commanding lead as if 75% of the country likes him and only 25% like Hillary. The popular vote is quite close. If you count MI & FL (which Obama doesn't want to for obvious reasons), it's even closer.


But those don't count for many reasons, primary among them is that Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan.

Sam wrote:
I don't see why Hillary should just back off, especially if she's moving up in the polls. PA is hers. NC is closing in. IN is mostly a republican state so it doesn't really matter, but she could also gain some ground there.

The point being that both are close and quite frankly both have a shot at the nomination at this point. Everything that you say about Hillary can be said about Obama. Plain and simple.


Hillary can't win more states than Obama, even if she wins every last one remaining. I can say that wothout a doubt.

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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Sam wrote:
If you count MI & FL (which Obama doesn't want to for obvious reasons), it's even closer.

Michigan and Florida don't count because Clinton publicly consented to them not counting. She changed her mind for tactical purposes. Enfranchisement is not a valid argument, because in most elections the majority of states do not hold competitive primaries, and thus technically are "disenfranchised".
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I don't see why Hillary should just back off, especially if she's moving up in the polls.

No she's not.
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PA is hers.

Perhaps, but with her lead down to 10 points.
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NC is closing in.

That's not what I would call the 21-percent lead Obama has opened up there, up from 1% during the Wright controversy. I find it gratifying how Obama often wins his states by much larger margins that Clinton wins hers. Her "big" Ohio win (10%, 9 delegates) doesn't stack up to our big Virginia win (29%, 25 delegates). :shades:
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IN is mostly a republican state so it doesn't really matter, but she could also gain some ground there.

Doesn't really matter? Funny logic all over again. Black people don't matter, small states don't matter, caucus states don't matter, states where people drink coffee don't matter, and Republican states don't matter. Damn, that's most of our country. :funny: NC is just as Republican, but evidently it matters before Clinton is "closing in" there. :wacko: Texas is a "red state", and so is Oklahoma, Tennessee, etc.
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The point being that both are close and quite frankly both have a shot at the nomination at this point. Everything that you say about Hillary can be said about Obama. Plain and simple.

A coup by superdelegate is mathematically much less likely than... the lack thereof. Plain and simple.

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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Straight cash, homie wrote:
Yep, it looks like it may very be all over but the crying for Clinton now...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9149.html

Quote:
One big fact has largely been lost in the recent coverage of the Democratic presidential race: Hillary Rodham Clinton has virtually no chance of winning.

Her own campaign acknowledges there is no way that she will finish ahead in pledged delegates. That means the only way she wins is if Democratic superdelegates are ready to risk a backlash of historic proportions from the party’s most reliable constituency.

Unless Clinton is able to at least win the primary popular vote — which also would take nothing less than an electoral miracle — and use that achievement to pressure superdelegates, she has only one scenario for victory. An African-American opponent and his backers would be told that, even though he won the contest with voters, the prize is going to someone else.

People who think that scenario is even remotely likely are living on another planet.

As it happens, many people inside Clinton’s campaign live right here on Earth. One important Clinton adviser estimated to Politico privately that she has no more than a 10 percent chance of winning her race against Barack Obama, an appraisal that was echoed by other operatives.

In other words: The notion of the Democratic contest being a dramatic cliffhanger is a game of make-believe

The real question is why so many people are playing. The answer has more to do with media psychology than with practical politics.

Journalists have become partners with the Clinton campaign in pretending that the contest is closer than it really is. Most coverage breathlessly portrays the race as a down-to-the-wire sprint between two well-matched candidates, one only slightly better situated than the other to win in August at the national convention in Denver.

One reason is fear of embarrassment. In its zeal to avoid predictive reporting of the sort that embarrassed journalists in New Hampshire, the media — including Politico — have tended to avoid zeroing in on the tough math Clinton faces.

Avoiding predictions based on polls even before voters cast their ballots is wise policy. But that's not the same as drawing sober and well-grounded conclusions about the current state of a race after millions of voters have registered their preferences.

The antidote to last winter's flawed predictions is not to promote a misleading narrative based on the desired but unlikely story line of one candidate.

There are other forces also working to preserve the notion of a contest that is still up for grabs.

One important, if subliminal, reason is self-interest. Reporters and editors love a close race — it’s more fun and it’s good for business.

The media are also enamored of the almost mystical ability of the Clintons to work their way out of tight jams, as they have done for 16 years at the national level. That explains why some reporters are inclined to believe the Clinton campaign when it talks about how she’s going to win on the third ballot at the Democratic National Convention in August.

That’s certainly possible — and, to be clear, we’d love to see the race last that long — but it’s folly to write about this as if it is likely.

It’s also hard to overstate the role the talented Clinton camp plays in shaping the campaign narrative, first by subtly lowering the bar for the performance necessary to remain in the race, and then by keeping the focus on Obama’s relationships with a political fixer and a controversial pastor in Illinois.

But even some of Clinton’s own advisers now concede that she cannot win unless Obama is hit by a political meteor. Something that merely undermines him won't be enough. It would have to be some development that essentially disqualifies him.

Simple number-crunching has shown the long odds against Clinton for some time.

In the latest Associated Press delegate count, Obama leads with 1,406 pledged delegates to Clinton’s 1,249. Obama’s lead is likely to grow, as it did with county conventions last weekend in Iowa, as later rounds of delegates are apportioned from caucuses he has already won.

The Democratic Party has 794 superdelegates, the party insiders who get to vote on the nomination in addition to the delegates chosen by voters. According to Politico's latest tally, Clinton has 250 and Obama has 212. That means 261 are uncommitted, and 71 have yet to be named.

An analysis by Politico's Avi Zenilman shows that Clinton’s lead in superdelegates has shrunk by about 60 in the past month. And it found Clinton is roughly tied among House members, senators and governors — the party’s most powerful elite.

Clinton had not announced a new superdelegate commitment since the March 4 primaries, until the drought was broken recently by Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) and West Virginia committeeman Pat Maroney.

Clintonistas continue to talk tough. Phil Singer, the Clinton campaign’s deputy communications director, told reporters on a conference call Friday that the Obama campaign “is in hot water” and is “seeing the ground shift away from them.”

Mark Penn, the campaign’s chief strategist, maintained that it’s still “a hard-fought race between two potential nominees” and that other factors could come into play at the convention besides the latest delegate tally — “the popular vote, who will have won more delegates from primaries [as opposed to caucuses], who will be the stronger candidate against McCain.”

But let’s assume a best-case scenario for Clinton, one where she wins every remaining contest with 60 percent of the vote (an unlikely outcome since she has hit that level in only three states so far — her home state of New York, Rhode Island and Arkansas).

Even then, she would still be behind Obama in delegates.

There are 566 pledged delegates up for grabs in upcoming contests. Those delegates come from Pennsylvania (158), Guam (4) North Carolina (115), Indiana (72), West Virginia (28), Kentucky (51), Oregon (52), Puerto Rico (55), Montana (16) and South Dakota (15).

If Clinton won 60 percent of those delegates, she would get 340 delegates to Obama's 226. Under that scenario — and without revotes in Michigan and Florida — Obama would still lead in delegates by 1,632 to 1,589.

The only remote possibility of a win in delegates would come if revotes were held in Florida and Michigan — which, again, would take a political miracle. If Clinton won 60 percent of the delegates in both states, she would win 188 delegates and Obama would win 125. Clinton would then lead among pledged delegates, 1,777 to 1,757.

The other elephant in the room for Clinton is that Obama is almost certain to win North Carolina, with its high percentage of African-American voters, and also is seen as extremely strong in Oregon.

Harold Ickes, an icon of the Democratic Party who is Clinton’s chief delegate strategist, points out that every previous forecast about this race has been faulty.

Asked about the Obama campaign’s contention that it’s mathematically impossible for Clinton to win, Ickes replied: “They can’t count. At the end of it, even by the Obama campaign’s prediction, neither candidate will have enough delegates to be nominated.

This is true, as a matter of math. But even the Clinton campaign’s own best-case scenario has her finishing behind Obama when all the nominating contests are over.

“She will be close to him but certainly not equal to him in pledged delegates,” a Clinton adviser said. “When you add the superdelegates on top of it, I’ll think she’ll still be behind him somewhat in total delegates — but very, very close.”

The total gap is likely to be 75 to 110, the adviser said.

That means Clinton would need either some of those pledged delegates to switch their support — which technically they can do, though it would be unlikely — or for the white-dominated group of superdelegates to join forces with her to topple Obama.

To foster doubt about Obama, Clinton supporters are using a whisper and pressure campaign to make an 11th-hour argument to party insiders that he would be a weak candidate in November despite his superior standing at the moment.

“All she has left is the electability argument,” a Democratic official said. "It’s all wrapped around: Is there something that makes him ultimately unelectable?”

But the audience for that argument, the superdelegates, will not easily overturn the will of the party’s voters. And in fact, a number of heavyweight Democrats are looking at the landscape and laying the groundwork to dissuade Clinton from trying to overturn the will of the party rank and file.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), who has not endorsed either candidate, appears to be among them. She told Bloomberg Television that superdelegates should "respect for what has been said by the people.” And she told ABC’s “This Week” that it would be “harmful to the Democratic Party” if superdelegates overturn the outcome of elections.

A Democratic strategist said that given the unlikelihood of prevailing any other way, Clinton now must “scare” superdelegates “who basically just want to win.”

The strategist said Clinton aides are now relying heavily on the controversy over Obama’s retiring minister, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, to sow new seeds of doubt.

“This issue is the first thing that’s come along that I think is potentially fatal to his electability argument,” the strategist said.

“They’re looking ahead and saying: Is it possible this thing is just going to drip, drip, drip, drip — more video? Where does that leave us if he’s our presumptive nominee and he’s limping into the convention and the Republicans are just read to go on him, double-barreled?”

The strategist also said Clinton’s agents are making more subtle pitches.

“I’ve heard people start to say: Have you looked at the vote in Ohio really carefully? See how that breaks down for him. What does that portend?” said the strategist. “Then they point to Pennsylvania: In electorally important battleground states, if he is essentially only carrying heavy African-American turnout in high-performing African-American districts and the Starbucks-sipping, Volvo-driving liberal elite, how does he carry a state like Pennsylvania?”

Her advisers say privately that the nominee will be clear by the end of June. At the same time, they recognize that the nominee probably is clear already.

What has to irk Clintons’ aides is that they felt she might finally have him on the ropes, bruised badly by the Wright fight and wobbly in polls. But the bell rang long ago in the minds of too many voters.


The writer or writers of this seemingly know very little about the primary season. While I didn't know about it until reading an article about it a few weeks ago, and it's now being brought up in the media, but there is a rule in the Democratic Party that allows Pledged Delegates to switch sides. They aren't "pledged" at all. They are just called pledged because they usually don't switch positions (there's never been a chance for them to do so really), but there really are no such things as pledged delegates. So this race between Obama and Clinton isnt precedented in the slightest and doing pre-mature math is going to be useless until the end.

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Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:02 pm
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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Another empty campaign talking point. Soon enough, Clinton will go on air and say the last rule-bending will involve the tactical application of fairy dust. Again, wishful thinking at its best. I feel a little sorry for the Clinton supporters bamboozled into believing all this crap about poaching delegates, "disenfranchisement", etc. I feel sorry for them because they aren't rotten at heart, just misguided.

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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Angela Merkel wrote:
Another empty campaign talking point. Soon enough, Clinton will go on air and say the last rule-bending will involve the tactical application of fairy dust. Again, wishful thinking at its best. I feel a little sorry for the Clinton supporters bamboozled into believing all this crap about poaching delegates, "disenfranchisement", etc. I feel sorry for them because they aren't rotten at heart, just misguided.


By damaging Obama's electability, it's possible some pledged delegates could change sides. Many strategists believe Obama's speech last week will help him in the short term, but will hurt him in a general election. The ones who say to others that they have been "misguided" are the misguided ones you know. There are some who are being misguided on both sides, this is politics. Obama isn't some saint. He is a washington politician, just like every other candidate at his core. And people who call for this to be over, yet say stuff about wanting the winner to be decided by pure democracy, are saying completely contradicting things. If they want this to be decided like a democracy, every voter will have a voice. So why exactly do you want it to be over now? I'm very excited my state will take part in this in May, and just like Groucho and someone else from PA, they too are very excited they are finally being noticed. Primaries really should include America as a whole, not almost all of America.

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“We were like gods at the dawning of the world, & our joy was so bright we could see nothing else but the other.”
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
“You have to pretend you get an endgame. You have to carry on like you will; otherwise, you can't carry on at all.”
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Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:46 pm
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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Ericka wrote:
I'm very excited my state will take part in this in May, and just like Groucho and someone else from PA, they too are very excited they are finally being noticed. Primaries really should include America as a whole, not almost all of America.


Well, that's an argument for changing the primary system, not for having someone stay in the race when there is little chance of them winning. By that logic, Kucinich and Dodd should still be running.

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Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:49 pm
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Post Re: Why Hillary mathematically cannot win
Groucho wrote:
Ericka wrote:
I'm very excited my state will take part in this in May, and just like Groucho and someone else from PA, they too are very excited they are finally being noticed. Primaries really should include America as a whole, not almost all of America.


Well, that's an argument for changing the primary system, not for having someone stay in the race when there is little chance of them winning. By that logic, Kucinich and Dodd should still be running.


As long as there is a chance, everyone in the race should stay in. And if some candidate wanted to stay in even if they had like 2 delegates, I don't think the media or anyone should pressure them to drop out. Maybe some old man in Puerto Rico wants to vote for him or her.

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“We were like gods at the dawning of the world, & our joy was so bright we could see nothing else but the other.”
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
“You have to pretend you get an endgame. You have to carry on like you will; otherwise, you can't carry on at all.”
"Paper is dead without words / Ink idle without a poem / All the world dead without stories."


Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:54 pm
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