I don't believe there are any people outside of the very religious who think there should be a total ban. But there are plenty of non-religious people who are for banning abortions that are not for life/health saving measures. There are doctors who will attest that fetuses can feel pain at a much earlier age than others say. There is definitely science that supports the idea of some sort of life starting before birth/viability.

Neither am I.

It's not just about abortion, though. McCain is pro-war. Anti-gay rights. His environmental policy's are better than most Republicans, but still mediocre at best, and his economic policies (the ones that he actually bothers to understand) are a joke.

My point is this; McCain may be marginally better than most Republicans, but this media-fueled coronation of him being the moderate or progressive Republican is kind of gross.

I hope you are aware that many pro-lifers allow exceptions for medical emergencies, and that I do as well. Not all of us argue on fundamentalist grounds.

Why is that so astonishing?

SurveyUSA on Maryland:

Dem
Obama - 55%
Clinton - 32%

Rep
McCain - 52%
Huckabee - 26%

Hillary is pro-war and anti-gay rights as well. So that's a wash. I'm also not impressed with her health care plan (or anyone's health care plan, for that matter, including Obama's). I do agree with you on the economic policies, as McCain is very typically Republican - borrow and spend a LOT.



I for one never said he was a progressive or a moderate. And I agree that the right's characterization is an attempted smear and that the media is delusional.

But the question for me is how he stacks up against Hillary should Hillary get the nomination. And my take on it is that, among all the Republicans, Hillary doesn't do so well against McCain.

Oh wow

And they say religious nuts have extremist viewpoints.

We, as a sentient species, a civilization, cannot hold itself together with an existential worldview. Just so you know.

Pre-birth, yeah. But the science for even before the end of the first trimester tends to come down on the side of parasitic entity, as harsh as that may sound. And let's remember that the vast majority of abortions occur during the first trimester.

Two reasons why Hillary has never been my candidate of choice.

I'm not bashing [s]Skeletor[/s] McCain in an attempt to extol the virtues of the remaining Democratic candidates.

Yes, because a statement based on medicinal and scientific data is just as extreme as one based on myths and superstitions.

Well my whole point was a comparison between Hillary and McCain in a heads up race - not simply to defend McCain. I'm for Obama all the way. But if Hillary gets the nom, then the waters get decidedly murky for me.

In some ways, that is correct. We are all complex agglomerations of molecules, or atoms, or quarks and spin 1/2 leptons -- how far should we go? Like it or not, much of what makes civilization tick is not the empirical, but the spiritual.

I disagree with McCain so sharply on some issues (abortion for one example) that I cannot foresee a situation where I would ever vote for the man.

My point was merely that of all the terrible Republican candidates running, McCain is the least objectionable to me.

Which is like saying of the various forms of torture to choose from, I'll take waterboarding.

no but the way it is presented and your many generalizations that are completely unrelated to medicine and science ... are.

a) The fact that you consider that the foundations are completely religious. Once again shows complete ignorance and once again shows a stereotypical prejudice against certain people being responsible for a type of feeling.
b) my fundamental issue with your statement (irregardless of at the end of the day, i agree with you or not on the core issue) is something jujubee also hit upon; your statement implies another very extreme condition which is the life of a parasite/child, fetus whatever you want to call it vs. the life of the mother.

The reason why people FOR abortion call it Pro-Choice (a term i hate as much as pro life) is because the woman has the right to choose for her own body, whether its cause she may die, doesn't want to have kids, want to struggle with 9 months of labor, have to recoop her body to look a certain way, isn't ready yet or wasn't planning on having a child to begin with. its her body. her choice. If the issue here was a prasites life vs a 12-50 year old woman, i doubt the terms pro-choice or pro life would even exist. point is, you take the extreme condition here where a woman's reasoning for abortion is solely based upon saving her life; and then going on to make it sound like its one thing 'all religious people of all religious backgrounds are against', which is just crazy considering most people would not even want to get into that debate. only the craziest of the fundamentalists take it that far.

I also find your use of term parasite amusing considering that in the most literal of senses, you just proved that life begins at conception ... but i'm just being nitpicky and not serious here.

My question would be if the foundation isn't exclusively religious, then what is it?

I didn't mean for my statement to imply exclusivity to that extreme situation. My intent was to encapsulate everything you mentioned above with one basic concept - that the existence of an unborn whatever is not more important than the well being of a woman - whether that is medically, mentally, socially, whatever. Let's keep in mind that those are broad terms, so my point isn't exclusively on the potential death of the mother issue.

This is a pretty interesting and detailed survey on Tuesday. By its estimation, Obama would gain a net of 31 delegates tomorrow.

I think if he could get over 60% in all three, that'd be big in term of media coverage.

Now I want some new Ohio and Texas polls!

I meant here in Virginia, not "here" around the forums.

But, yes, you could be right.

I'm worried about my home state of PA. Hopefully, by the time they get to us in April, Obama will be so far ahead that Hillary's support with our governor (who used to be head of the Democratic party -- Dean's position now) won't matter as much.

I dont think the whole issue of abortion has much to do with religion. My old high school teacher wasnt religious but he was a vegetarian, whatever level you call it where the only animal products he does digest is milk . One thing he doesnt eat is eggs but explained to us that because there is life in it from his point of view. Im not sure if that point of view is shared by any of the vegetarians here. I mean for those that are whatever you call lactose level vege mccall it

That's a bit extreme. It's like saying a woman is having an abortion every time she gets her period. Because that's all the eggs we eat are. Unfertilized eggs. (Of course, my form of vegetarianism is totally fake. I eat fish! But, I don't actually care about animals, I just have no desire to eat them. Except fish.)

Where in Virginia? I grew up in Richmond and went to college there.

wasnt making that analogy . My point was that you were arguing that being pro-life totally had to do with being religious where I was pointing out where my teacher wouldnt touch any eggs because he believed life existed inside of it otherwise it would be ok to to ransack a birds nest and pelting the whole neighborhood for of its eggs. And the reason you eat fish is because they are one of the lowest life forms on earth that doesnt have any sort of emotion at all unlike pigs and cows etc

Pennsylvania is competitive, given the almost total absence of Latino voters. Same with Ohio.

"aye essai, Im not voting for Obama, homes"
"hes Cabrone"

I know you weren't making the analogy, but it's a pretty weird thing for your teacher to think, without translating that to menstruating being a loss of life. (It's pretty weird, either way, in my opinion.)

And, really, I only eat fish because I like fish. And I only abstain from other flesh because I don't like it. That and my sensitive stomach, which fish doesn't bother. As my mother once said, I hate animals so much that I refuse to eat them.

Edit: I should stress that I, of course, am aware that people don't eat eggs, but I always thought it had to do with believing that any animal by-products are abuse of animals, or something like that.