Yes, I'm glad you guys saw it too. it wasn't a big deal to me in FOTR because it was more on a personal rather than epic level, and at least liv tyler was pretty aggressive there. Blanchett too. Then they all just slip into non-existence for the next two features, and Liv looks mopey and sick the whole time. I dunno, in TTT they make a point of having this 12 year old boy freaking out about going to defend the fortress and yet there are healthy 40 year old grown women that have to be shelled up in the basement and sit around looking like wimpering mice. I didn't buy it. Historical accuracy my butt. Like you said Boxie, its fiction, it can be manipulated, and the director can add his own vision to it. Barring Jackson's desire not to change the text, I at least wouldn't have emphasized the point.

He could have had a quick statement about saving the women and children and called it a dat. He kept cutting back to see them freaking out and clutching their babies, and also kept having men reiterate their need to be saved. It could have just been snuck quietly under the covers rather than marched about in loud bellows. It really killed the second two for me a bit.

In Narnia that's not the case at all, and for that I'm keeping my hopes up.

So you didn't like LOTR because the way it portrayed women? What about the thousands of men that "died" in that movie, or how they were treated as being "evil" (most, if not all, of the orcs were male)? Don't they matter? Tell me if I am understanding you right?

I'm not sure if I undestand your question. There are two readings here. One is just about "general" mankind, being portrayed as evil, power hungry, dieing, killing, whatever. Is that what you're asking me about? Because I'm doing a gendered reading right now, and if it were up to me, I think the ghosts they recruited could have been women, I think the orcs could have been women, I don't care. I think the orcs should pretty much have been androgenous actually, since they don't reproduce on their own, they are mechanical reproduction.

Basically, women should have been given equal opportunity to "die" defending the fortresses, none of this sheltering them in the basement while we put 12 year old boys on the front line crap.

Why? Who is going to protect the babies then? Do you really think a woman (no offense) could battle as well as a man in a war like in LOTR? Sure, you have some exceptions, but really. Unless you want all men, women and children to die it's best to keep women protecting the children. Why do people bitch when women are "treated" wrong in a movie but when men are displayed as evil or murderers, no one cares? Do you hear men bitching about Titanic? No. But here women (and men) are actually complaining about women protecting their children? Incredible. Stupid feminism. It's gone way too far.

Dolce, read the Wheel of Time Series by Robert Jordan. It's based on a matriarchal world; some fun reading. The Sword of Truth Series by Terry Goodkind is almost as good as well.

Oh twelve year old siblings can watch their baby brothers and sisters and full grown healthy women can join the front lines. How does that sound? You really think a twelve year old boy would fight better than I could? I doubt it.

Yes, especially ghosts, they're not "real" anyways. These are all mythicl characters. Hey didn't princess leia strangle jabba the hut to death? How about when luke came to rescue her and she had to do all the work. The above statement is ridicluous.

I'm sure they do. There are an equal amount of criticisms in the world about the portrayel of men in film as women. And you're welcome to complain just as much as you like if you think all men are depicted as serial rapists if you like.

Bwahahahaha! Both sexes can "protect" their children in many different ways. Drawing a line down the middle and sending the men over to this side and the women over to that one is just outright regressive, especially when it comes to such things as fictional cinema and literature.

I don't. And even if you could, do you think a 12 year old can protect multiple babies from Trolls?



If they could've, they would've. Simple as that.

I'm sure they do. There are an equal amount of criticisms in the world about the portrayel of men in film as women. [/quote]I hope you are kidding me, and if you aren't: seriously, where have you been in the last 20 years? I bet for every one criticism of male violence in movies I could find you 10 about females.



Well in Tolkien's world; women are not as strong as men. Kind of reflects on the real world, as well. As you said; it's a mythical world and if Tolkien wants it that way - do NOT bitch. I bet if it was MEN saving their babies and women fighting only you would not have this problem, but thanks to feminism you are brainwashed.

Good god, this thread is hilarious!

Great Reasoning quote="StarWarsEpisode7"]ur opinion.



I think it was Freda Adler or Rita Simon (not sure who, but both are feminists ). Well they pointed out that due to technology, brute force is no longer applicable to power of one gender over another. Anyone can pull a trigger now.

Also in regards to LOTR movies; Liv Tyler could send a pack of water dogs to save the hobbits at the begginning but when it comes to the war, she stays at home? (i'm not sure if this happens in the books bc i tried so hard to read them but cant)

Society is at a break point.. We know the old-white-male-baldheaded ****ers are dishonest as sin.. Enron, World-Com, nuclear waste, etc.. Our last thread of hope is a shopworn belief that Mom would never lie.. Corporations and governments, via their PR focus groups, use this passing belief by having spokespeople be primarily women.. Condi Rice, Janet Reno, the EPA, ad nauseum.. Women are the best bishops(message carrier) in today's chest, er chess, game.. Exploiting whoever is best.....
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karl.........

My god, I think I am going to stop reading your posts because you are possibly the stupidest person I have seen on these boards.

Hey, by your standards, that means it's OK to kill and eat you, right?

Yes.

Oh yeah and you forgot to tell me WHY I am stupid.

That's hot.

Seriosuoly, if you go laong iwth popular opinion you are a sheep, if you go against popular opinion then you are sheep just trying to hate because it is the in thing.



Someone needs a lesson on trolling 101

meh ... not liking lotr due to an unequal portrayal of men and women ... hmm .... nope ... not buying that one. While i don't agree one bit with StarWarsEpisode7's reasoning, i'm with him on this one.

Jackson and company obviosuly thought it was an issue, Arwen is not even in the books, she is in the Appendix. SHe shoudl ahve been in FOTR for 3 seconds, non existent in TTT, and around for 10 seconds in ROTK.

yup ... and i believe the entire introduction of arwen had even less to do with giving women equal presentation in the movie but building more upon Aragorn's love interest to get more ladies into the movie. Yes, this isn't what new line or jackson himself ever say but i would pretty much have dismissed the entire trilogy if i had seen women fighting equally in the war.

I personally think Arwen should have been left out. Because i feel by putting her in, jackson ended up messing with a very important thing that tolkien was building on with Eowyn's story.

The Elf world is magical. The ladies there are still not warriors but they're high up in power and magic.
Man's world was entirely different. It was Tolkien who wanted to portray the entire thing as male dominated .. completely male dominated and then using that one human female token, not to show equal representation but to portray a break from conventional ideas. That is why i thought the entire Eowyn story was so important. Giving Arwen equal representation cannot show this. In a movie, people will see arwen and eowyn as female, not elf and human.

And if we're going by history, with people fighting with swords and shields, how many times have we seen wars fought with women involved? refrain from naming 1 or 2 women ... i'm not for giving equal opportunities to women, minorities just because we should. It wasn't custom and it should be portrayed as so. Even today, what percentage of american marines are women? what percentage of asian armies are? european?

Next, they'll be saying that Superman should have been black.

I HATED Arwen in the movie, hated her. She's in the appendix for a reason, she bloody boring. The nee dto work er in TTT led to that stupid Aragorn over the cliff sequence.

Since the book parallels war so much, and in particular the World Wars, it makes sene that the women take a back seat. The bonding of hte hobbbits is alot like the bondign of men going off to the front line together.

And I agree, what makes Eowyn so great is that she wants more then to just be in the background, but as Thedon said, leading the women to safety is jsut as important as fighting. She wants to fight becuase she is a born leader and it explaisn why she falls for Aragorn and why he dose like her even though his heart belongs to Arwen.

And the scene dolce speaks of where they show 12 year old boys afraid to fight while there are able bodeid women who would likely be better at fighting goes toshow what it was like to send of young boys to war...LOTR certainyl has Christian themes, but there are alot of parallels with what is was like when the World was at war.

That said, I don't that StarWars7 is saying this...because dolce is expressing a concern that Jackson and New Line forsaw, that women would want to see female characters to get into the story.

i think the whole 12 year old boy fighting thing with women taking care of kids is less parellel to Christian themes but more so to the cold truth of how things are. Tolkien wrote this during world war 2 ... and its sad to say most people fighting wars throughout history included youngeons, that did not wish to fight but were expected to. Even jackson did a good job of portraying that .... we felt pity for this boy .. we knew he didn't belong there and at no moment later on in the movie is the boy ever shown as a hero later (which would justify his place in war).

Jackson took liberty with Arwen's character. But who else could he have taken a liberty with? To completely invent another female lead would have led to a disaster on a level i cannot even imagine .. that too a female lead. There is a lack of women in lotr for a reason and maybe thats one of the reason why its different from other movies based on wars. Enemy at the gates had 1 female lead only but she was present throughout. Lotr had upto 3 but they're barely around, except for Eowyn. I still think it was the right thing to do though .. leaving the women out ... to tell a proper tale. from a box office perspective though, i can understand why more women would have helped.

I agree, that actually what I was trying to say, it was brought in this thread the Christian themes of the filma nd how that was really a big deal...I think that is the case because the parallels to war are far greater and more obvious.

The boy is representatie of thousands of young men who went to war in both WWI and WWII who were far to young to be there...in fact is there ever really a good age for something like that?



I honestly would have preferred he spent more time on Eowyn, then all the Arwen scenes in TTT. Arwen in FOTR was fine, but in TTT she really got on my nerves. I know he wanted more scnee time for fmeleas nad his optiosn for this are limited, but Eowyn is a much more interesting charter then Arwen..Eowyn pinky nail is more interesting then Arwen.

eowyn got good time in the EE's though .. not that i'm complaining about the theatrical cut either. I think she got good time there too. much more than what tolkien ever gave her in TTT

I am NOT trolling. Just giving my opinion. Because if you think about it, would women complain if it was MEN taking the babies away? Nope. This reminds me of some of the criticism of Sin City and how it is so "sexist" and such. Who cares, really? Just sit back and enjoy the movie, but obviously feminazi's cannot do this because they have to search their feelings to find something that is allegedly "sexist."

TTT EE was a huge improvement over TTT TE.

I have yet to watch ROTK EE even though I own it.

i'm so confused!