The Terminator series lost just as much of it's core audience between the 2nd and 3rd movie in terms of tickets sold. Adjusted for inflation, T2 made $304 million. T3 came in at $155 million about a 49% drop. Matrix Reloaded made $280 million, and Matrix Revolutions made $139 million, about a 50% drop. Also consider that the Terminator series had a 10+ year gap between the films to build up anticipation. If the 3rd Matrix had a 10 year rest and new effects technology to play with, I dare say it would have done better than it did.

Also, if you want to compare pure dollars, the Matrix comes out on top, even with adjusted figures. But, I think dollars earned shouldn't play into this equation at all. As we all know how much money something makes does not automatically translate into quality. Which explains why the Backstreet Boys sold more albums than Nirvana.

I also don't see your logic in proclaiming the Matrix Reloaded as being the bench mark for it's cult audience. I think the truth is the opposite as MRel brought in a lot of the casual fans interested simply because of the hype. It's core "cult" audience was the audience that saw the first movie, not the second.

But with Terminator, the first two films were both great, and debatably, so was the third. Everyone loved the first two, most really liked the third. But with The Matrix, people HATED the second and third.

Well, you talk to different high schoolers than I do because I know a lot that love the film. Also, you have to go no further than IMDB.com to look at their breakdown of the Matrix Reloaded ratings by age. You'll see that people aged 18 and under are by far the ones that love the film the most with a 7.6 out of 10 average.

I'm not arguing whether it will be viewed more fondly than LOTR in the future, as we can't tell until we get there. There are far too many variables to predict that. For all we know Elijah Wood will be arrested in 5 years for being a pedophile and nobody will be able to watch those movies again the same way. (I have even money that that really happens!)

What I can tell you is that it is now 6 years since the first Matrix was released and we're still discussing it, and it is very apparent there is still a large group of diehard fans of the series.

The Matrix trilogy is good, but it has major flaws. It is not the best trilogy of all time by any means. The original Star Wars trilogy is much better, along with the LOTR trilogy, and even the first three Harry Potter films are better.

You're completely making stuff up now. People did not hate Matrix Reloaded on the whole. All factual evidence points to the opposite. Over 70% of 52,000 people rate it a 7 or higher on IMDB.com and it earner over a 75% fresh rating at Rotten Tomatoes. If that is your definition of hating a movie then people must have REALLY hated Terminator 3 as it scored lower at both of those places. It's funny how your perception changes when it is a movie you like.

Well, being that you have Raise Your Voice on your top 15 list (listed in the top 100 worst movies of all time by IMDB.com), it's hard to take you seriously! :wink:

That's not very nice! We all have different tastes in movies, and you should be thankful it isn't Catwoman at #15, seeing that was much worse than RYV in my opinion. :razz:

Tony's first post at BOM was a debate with me regarding this exact same thing. You even used these same exact "facts".

I so owned you, BTW.

I don't think someone can look at the Box Office total and general reception for Matrix Revolutions and say that Reloaded wasn't a vastly more disappointing feature to the public than Tony lets on. There is much more to the perception of whether or not a film is good or not than the box office. A really awful film can make a LOT of money given the right conditions, and Reloaded had all those conditions.

I don't think anybody really can argue with the cultural relevance of the first film. We've detached the first film, it is *safe*. But the second and third films are not percieved as really technical landmarks. The wire-fu is all attributed to the first film. So all you have is the story and characterizations for the sequel, and based on my real world experience, it usually ended up disappointing people. You have one up on me though, I don't know a lot of high schoolers...

But the sequels? They are almost an afterthought. I'm not arguing for "best" or "most beloved" or any other weird rankings people want to force on films, or create a really weird position against the films, I just don't really see the love for the series as a whole. I actually saw less love for The Matrix immediately after the sequels, and people tried to distance themselves from it.

Rotten Tomatoes? It doesn't matter. IMDB? Useless stat. We are arguing about its cultural relevancy, not whether or not it is a good film. If you want ot just look at b.o. stats, you could say The Day After Tomorrow is much more beloved than The Matrix Revolutions. Do you really think that's the case?

All this love for Matrix Reloaded had nothing to do with Matrix Reloaded. Those high scores are due to nostalgia for the first film, and those scores were recorded before people were able to mentally detach Reloaded from Matrix 1.

It sounds to me as if we are arguing about what is the Best Trilogy As Seen Through The Filter Of Time. Right now, I think the award goes to Star Wars OT simply because it has proven itself over 25 years of time. Indiana Jones is up there. Terminator deserves a mention. LotR will need a little time, but it shows every sign of surviving (The Oscars won't hurt.) Matrix hasn't even survived two years..heck, Reloaded didn't even survive its second weekend.

A film gets remember for more then its grounbreaking special effects, and the movies alienated alot of the audience that loved it with tehsequels.

I taught at a summer camp and after the first film, all the teenagers worshipped The matrix, and after the sequels, it was a totally different thing. Sure there are many, many fans who still worship these films, but heck I love the first film and I cannot stand the sequels.

And those groundbreaking special effects didn;t look that good ot begin with in the sequels and right now they are pianfully obviosu to pick out. The scene were Neo fights the 100+ Agent Smiths enver looked real, the computer effects always looked like a video game. I rewatched the sequeles 2 days agoa dn the part witht he pole, looks like I am sitting at my computer playing a game. Groundbreaking effects are nice, but people remember a film for hte plot, story, connectiont o the characters because computer effects can look dated very quickly.

Also the ratings at imdb are pretty useless, since they have no way of checking ot see if you saw the movie or not. Most popular movies have a ton of votes for 1 and 10 before they are even released. It taints the whole system. RT is a better measure since at least the critics saw the actual movie.

Well, I never ever stated that the Matrix only earns merit from groundbreaking special effects. On the contrary, I love the stories and think there is a lot of meat there. After I listened to the philosophers commentary on each of the movies (on the new Ultimate edition DVDs), I even appreciated the story more and saw things from a new angle, and also could relate what points in the movies refer to which specific philosophers.

While the Matrix story was not entirely groundbreaking, the idea of mixing an effects laden loud brash big budget action picture with an intelligent plot was definitely a new idea. The Matrix will always be remembered for combining these elements as no other film before it contained all of these elements. Please name me another big budget action movie with any major attempt at an intelligent plot.

Your assertion that kids don't like the Matrix anymore because you talked to some kids at summer camp is irrelevant. Every conceivable gauge of public perception to the Matrix Reloaded was very favorable. You claim Rotten Tomatoes is a fair gauge, but seem to discount the MReloaded's score of 75% fresh. Cinescore, Yahoo movies, IMDB.com, Rotten Tomatoes, Meta Critic, all point to the fact it was received favorably, and even more so by the under 18 crowd. Please refer me to one source that shows teens do not like Matrix Reloaded besides "I talked to some kids". Because I know quite a few who still love the movies (my 16 year old and 14 year old neighbors think it is the coolest movie ever made), but that is not a fair gauge to use and holds little merit in a discussion like this as it is an isolated sample.

Some movies are ahead of it's time. Citizen Kane was hated when it was released, and considered to be a huge turd. I can't predict exactly what time will do to the Matrix series, but I do see it as being possible that it could grow in stature over time. It was very daring to end the films the way they did in a non-typical big budget way. This turned a lot of people off, but in the future, the Wachowski's could earn kudos for combining several film elements and not conforming to every rule of a big budget action flick.

There is more meat in the stories than people give credit to. There are college classes taught about the movies and it's not hard to find large dissertations written on the web from people dissecting the layers of the Matrix movies. Those things do not normally happen from your typical big budget action films. That and the fact that we're still discussing the movie 6 years after it's initial release, says something.

I said earlier that looking at box off receipts alone means absolutely nothing, and pointed out that the Backstreet Boys sold more records than Nirvana. It's very apparent that pure dollars earned means nothing.

I'm not even arguing that the Matrix is the best trilogy. By pure stat based rankings, it would appear LOTR has it beaten by a mile. I'm only arguing against those that get confused about the Matrix sequels and think that disappointment in one or both means people "hated" them.

It's nice to see I haven't moved very far in the last year or two. I have a feeling 20 years from now I'll still be here saying the same damn thing.

And, you learned a valuable lesson that day...don't tangle with TonyM about the Matrix. I see you've learned it well and have chosen not to enter this argument!

I don't discount RT, in fact the reception towards Relaoded was quite good, but The Matrix has a fresh rating of 88%, Relaoded 75%, Revoutions 36%. This downword trend does not bode well for this being considered the best trilogy ever. the 75% fresh rating for relaoded does not look so good against the 36% for Revolutions. My example was merely to show that the sequels isloated some of the people who worshipped the first film. Like all sequels, the follows both gained and lost audience members. it wasnot to go, oh everyone hates the movie now, merely point out that yes I agreee with your statement that the yougner genreation embraced the first movie. I spend my days with comptuer geeks who worship the matrix and won;t have you say anything bad about it without channeling you to a duel with their lightsaber. But I stillalso contend that the sequels turned off some of those kids who were so obsessed with the first movie. It certianly did box office wise.

While box office alone is not going to tell you about hwere a film will end up in the long, the drop off from what Reloaded made to what Revolutions made does say something given that were released in the same year. There is nt need to adjsut for inflation, ticket prices, etc. The simple fact is alot less peopel cared to see the third film in the theater. I went to see both films on the day the opened, and it was a world of difference in trying to get tickets, waiting in line, etc.

Comparing the Backstreet Boys to Nirvana is not like comparing Reloaded to Revolutions, compare how the Backstreet albums sold at he height of their popularity compared to when they were experiencing a backlash.

The Matrix may in time end up being thought of as a great film. The Citizen Kane exampel is a good one, but many in the masses tsill think Kane is gow awufl boring. It is beautifully filmed and critically loved, but if you polled Cinemascore I am not so sure it would get a high rating. I trust Cinemascore about as wella s atrust IMDB, often times with big movies the scores just seem so inflated, but again at least these people so the saw. Revolutiosn had a terrible ascore at imdb before it was even released, hence why i discount its rating. That many did not see the movie a week before it came out.

As for combinng ground breaking effects with an intelligent script, that is up for debate, but I agree that the first film did this. For me the latter do did not, the effects were easy to spot and I was not that impressed with the script. Plus, alot of people who had read Necramancer point to that and say the ground work for doing so was their years before. While I love hte first film, I am not so sure I woudl callit orginal. It has hard for a movie to come along and change the face of movies, and make them all that different. ceritanly the first film had an effec tonhow speciall effects were done in movies. Bullet time was everywere, and that was unforunately because it got downright sickening. It made sense in the rules of The Matrix to ahve bullet time, we didn't need it in every action movie since.

The matrix may well be considered a great trilogy, but like most trilgoies there are is usually a weak movie or two that doesn't hold up.

Return of the Jedi, Godfather Part III, etc...none of these trilogies are perfect. I just think that in the logn run SW:OT, Godfather, Indiana Jones, etc. are all going to rank higher.

I honestly think in the long run The Matrix trilogy will end up somehwer in the middle, the backlashs and hatred will settle down but so will some of the devotion. I am not sure if any films can ever again get he kind of devotion Star Wars did. They way we make movies now is so different, inpart because of Star Wars.

Algren orginal post suggested the matrix was jsut completely orginal in a way the other trilogies were not, this is the idea I do nto agree with at all. His comment was that you could copy LOTR easiyl, but not The Matrix...which makes no sense to me at all.

Did Nirvana ever record a song that matched the mellifluous beauty of Quit Playing Games (With My Heart)? Did they ever rock out as power hard as the Boys did in their video for Everybody (Backstreet's Back)? The Backstreet Boys will be remembered for their catchy pop songs with brackets in their titles long after Nirvana have become little more than a faded chicken pox scar on the forehead of society.

I think you'll find there was never a backlash against the Backstreet Boys. They're as great as they ever were, and their popularity will never wane. Anyone who says different is either a hater, stupid, or a stupid hater.

Despite posters here attempting to put words in my mouth, I never claimed that the Matrix would disappear forever, only that its appeal would fade in comparison to truly well made films like LOTR, the original Star Wars, and the Godfather trilogies. The Matrix isn't as highly regarded as those other films now, so I cannot imagine that over time, the appeal of the films will improve.

Cultural relevancy changes over time as culture changes. Some of the biggest films that affected our culture are hardly even watched today.

The films we still watch today that were made 50 - 100 years ago are the good ones, the ones that stand the test of time. No one is going to care how novel the special effects were of a film 50 years from now, they are only going to watch the films if they are good films.

I agree! It works vice-versa too. Some of the most culturally relevant films today weren't watched back when they were released. Take, for example, Blade Runner. A truly awful film that is much more popular among the public and critics today than it was back in 1982.



I disagree! There are plenty of old films that are pretty pants but manage to remain popular because of their influential special effects techniques and/or design. Take, for example, Blade Runner. A truly awful film that seems to ride a wave of critical and public love based solely on it's (admittedly terrific) set design.

I may just be reading between the lines, but are you trying to say that Blade Runner is an awful film that seems to ride a wave of critical and public love based soley on it's (admittedly terrific) set design?

It's very apparent you forgot about the teen anthem by Nirvana entitled "Rape Me".

Current appeal does not necessarily dictate staying power. A good example off the top of my head would be Blade Runner a truly awful film that....

And, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. Your initial comment that "the Godfather trilogy, the original Star Wars trilogy, and the Lord of the Rings trilogy will still be around long after people have lost interest in the Matrix" made it sound as if you were saying that the Matrix would soon fade from view. I understand your point, but think it is too hard to predict the future for sure. The Matrix has some elements that could elevate it's opinion over time.

I find your reply well thought out and reasonable, and must say it is a pleasure to debate with you, Ripper. I agree with most of your points, but must take issue with a few...

You say that per the box office receipts it showed that the Matrix alienated it's fan base. I'd have to disagree with you in terms of Matrix Reloaded which far outdid the first movie, and sold a boatload of DVDs. As for Matrix Revolutions, it did underperform from the original movie (171 million to 136 million). However, I think it is partially due to the fact that releasing the movie 6 months after Reloaded was a huge mistake. People were burnt out from the massive hype machine. I can't help but wonder how it would have performed had they filmed the movies separately and given some time between their releases (2-4 years). But, yes in terms of every critical gauge and box office tally, Revolutions got a very lukewarm reception.

I wasn't comparing the Backstreet Boys and Nirvana as a comparison for Reloaded and Revolutions. I was only pointing out that total sales does not equate to quality. So, just because Matrix Reloaded did a very good $280 million, it would not automatically mean it was a great film by itself. I was just saying that there are more factors than box office alone.

As time goes by, people tend to reflect on daring movies more fondly (off the top of my head Blade Runner comes to mind). I just think that the Matrix Revolutions has some potential to fall in to that category. It did not prescribe to the typical Hollywood ending, which would probably have every machine blowing up with huge explosions in the background while Neo and Trinity make out in the foreground. It thumbed it's nose at the typical Hollywood ending.

Again, I would also disagree that the movies aren't original. I challenge you to name one other big budget action flick that combined intelligence and action. As the Wachowski's said they wrote the Matrix after reading a critic in the New York Times that demanded Hollywood deliver action films that are "loud, dumb, and obvious". They say that they noticed that every big budget action flick is dumb, and every intelligent film has no action. They thought, why not combine the two? That alone is a very original idea. Add to it they included ground breaking special effects, and western action stars doing most of their own kung-fu after 6 months of training (which had never been done before), and you have a very original concept.

As for the Star Wars trilogy, I do not see that as perfect either. It arguably had a weak ending chapter. Ditto for Godfather. While I hated the LOTR trilogy with a passion, I must admit it is probably the only one that held the public's attention equally through all three movies and was pretty much universally loved. Just for some reason, I don't see it being endearing for the long term.

Am I? I try to say a lot of things. Some of my ramblings turn out to be gold, some of them turn out to be... mould. But few could deny that even the mouldiest guff I spout has a slight gold tinge or at the very least a silver lining. Like a fart cloud mixed with pot-pourri air freshener.