Yes.

Prove it. Without proof, they're just a bunch of weirdos who like to get together and fantasize.

I just find it bizarre that Lecter views the not banning of Nazi stuff as a failure of the U.S. Instead I see the U.S. as having a virtuous circle: we have crazy groups because we have freedom of speech but it is also because of that freedom of speech that extreme crazy groups haven't come to power in the U.S. Our tradition & constitution both allows extremism and helps work towards it not coming to real power.

This whole thread is depressing.

Personaly i would ban anything Nazi.

People here need to understand the difference between belief and action.

In America, you can believe and advocate whatever the hell you want to. That is one of the reasons America is so great.

However, there are things that are illegal here, and if you do them, you will be punished.

For instance, you can believe that marijuana should be legalized, that men should be able to have more than one wife, that men should be able to have sex with porcupines. Go ahead, believe that these things are OK, and even try to get the law changed the way you want. That's the American way.

That is not the same thing as actually doing these things, which is illegal.

The reason America is great is because we do not punish people for what they think.* That's why it is not illegal for NAMBLA to put out their booklets or for Nazis to meet and have rallies.

Free speech is pretty meaningless if it's only given to speech we all agree with.


*theoretically; certain "Hate Crime" laws seem to counter this, which is why I don't like them.

How would NOT allowing it fail to prevent it coming to power?

Sorry, but I disagree. Freedom of Speech isn't always good!

For example: Imagine there was a car accident and your wife got killed. There are 5 men standing next to the burning car - they laugh at you. They say that she deserved it, although they don't know her.

Now here is my question: Would you feel offended? (keep in mind - its all a matter of Freedom of speech, they just tell you what they think!)

And thats exactly the same thing with Nazi's! They OFFEND other people, mostly people who are a minority and can't defend themselves.

:?

Oh my goodness, your comments about freedom of speech offends me! I'm calling the police and having you arrested right now! If there is one thing we cannot have in a free society, it's people being offended!

I certainly hope you rethink your views, and try to see where that would lead. Just about anything can offend someone. Many republicans claimed that democrats who spoke out against the war offended the brave fighting men and women, so would you then have them thrown in jail? Some people who speak out in favor of gay rights offend others, so should they be thrown in jail for offending someone? Many political talk show hosts and disc jockeys offend people, shall we throw them all in jail?

Face it, just about any political or social view you believe in will offend someone out there. Or do you only advocate punishing people whose views you disagree with, and allowing all those who say things you agree with go free?

I think I should start an organization that fights AGAINST all human rights

There is a difference between offending gays and foreigners: if you offend gays, the result will be psychical violence. If you offend foreigners, its kinda physical violence (and if you do not agree with this, try to speak with a real Nazi. I hope you can run fast... and yes, I've made some bad experiences).

I'll join! BURN JEWS BURN!!!

Sam, there are already laws against threatening personal physical violence. Free speech does not protect harassing, intimidating, or threatening speech.

Once more, action is treated differently. Nazis have the right to speech just like everyone else in America. If they threaten someone, they can be arrested -- just like everyone else in America. They will be arrested for their actions, and not based on what they say.

It's like giving them all the opportunities just waiting for them to actually break the law.

Scientists found out that speaking bad about one person can also be physical violence. I know it sounds weird, but its also my opinion -> if Nazis say that all Jews should burn in hell, I as a Jew would feel not only offended, but also afraid.

Thats the way I see it (and also most people in Austria do)...

I agree, but in America we see that as a tradeoff. You have to protect all speech, no matter how hateful, because if you don't, you may find that you will not be able to speak next.

For example, I can freely say that all Nazis should burn in hell and no one will stop me.

Once more, this is different from a Nazi getting in your face and literally threatening you.

so technically you DO NOT have complete freedom of speech ... so like krem said, you either have it or you dont .. doesn't apply.

Technically you are correct -- there is not absolute complete freedom of speech. The government can shut you up for a number of reasons... but none of those reasons can be based on what you say, but how and where you say it.

For example, you can't incite a riot by yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre. You can't yell your political views in the center of City Hall with a loudspeaker. You can't harass someone or threaten someone. You can't make pornography available to children.

See the distinction? It's the content of the speech that is protected. No one can be punished merely for their opinions or what they say. We value ideas here, and know that unpopular views (such as those from the nazis) will die out in the "marketplace of ideas". No one pays any attention to the nazis or NAMBLA, and whenever these groups try to have a rally, a thousand people turn out in opposition to them for every ten they produce. We're not afraid of unpopular views here.

yes but my point is that at the end of the day then, limited freedom of speech does not equate to 0 freedom at all, as krem tried to imply ... how america provides is freedom is an entirely different issue ...

Well, it all goes to how you define "freedom of speech." The only limits are how you say the speech and where you say the speech -- there are no limits on what the speech can be. So Krem is right if you define "speech" as the content of the speech and not the way the speech is said.

Well....

If someone is to say Freedom of Speech, i consider it as it is. Freedom of being able to say what you want, without it being governed by time, place or content.

Then again, what about racial slurs. I'm asking this because I want to understand how it works. Use of words such as nigger or racial slurs in public ... do you consider that as "How you say the speech" (which i find extremely subjective) or content of the speech.

I guess at the end of the day, I'm tryign to say that freedom of speech itself is very subjective ... a person like me keeping my own defination in mind does not believe in complete freedom of speech (nor the lack of it). I believe there are rules required to govern all type sof freedom because moving too much on any one side of a spectrum on any issues (whether its freedom, or speech or anythign whatsoever) is a bad thing ...

bad might be misleading ... i'd like to add unhealthy and not correct to that.

Arsi, like Mike said, it's the content of the speech that is protected, not necessarily HOW you say it.

For instance, I can go around saying "nigger" all I want. What I can't do is come up to you and start shouting it in your face. In this case, my freedom of speech is interfering with your freedom to not listen to me.

thanks for the explanation .. in most places around the world, i know you're sometimes not allowed to use certain racial slurs at all, hence my question ...

i still believe in limited control but thanx for clarifying that.

More importantly, you also can't come up and shout "Have a Nice Day" in my face either. It's the shouting that is punished, not necessarily the what is said.

Admittedly, there are certain laws like "ethnic intimidation" and other "hate crime laws" that have been passed recently which seem to punish what you say as well as how you say it. I am against all those laws, and some courts have found these laws unconstitutional. But that's a recent thing, and it may be that they will all be found unconstitutional some day.

I can literally be fined for screaming "Have a nice day" on your face?

What does Hate Crime and Ethnic Intimidation encompass?