Umm, yes it is. For the majority of people it's not even possible to get one.

I'm talking about your attitude towards the law; apparently to you any law is just, regardless of what it is.

The politicians in this country will never allow legal immigration of 12 million low-wage workers. You saw what happened with Bush's proposal. Don't sit there and pretend that it's a walk in the park to immigrate into the U.S.

Like I said before, the problem with this is not the illegal immigrants, but what we're spending our money on. 37% of CITIZENS of this country do not pay any income tax at all, yet they also receive all those government services. By your logic they're also thieves. It's the system of the handouts that has to be fixed, not the people.

Who cares how you call them? They're people whose only crime is wanting to do work that nobody in this country will do except for them.

What are you, Lou Dobbs? How do the illegal immigrants hurt the economy? BECAUSE they're willing to work below minimum wage, they get to work for wages they could only dream of in Mexico or wherever. So it's a win for them. You, on the other hand, are getting to enjoy low prices at your grocery store. So it's a win for you.

Did you mean Immigrant or illegal immigrant?

I can not make a judgement on illegal immigrants as i know none nor have enough knowledge on that but saying legal immigrants are given jobs at the very bottom of social desirability and pay is not entirely true. one needs to look at the criteria for immigrating ... a significant population of people who legally immigrate to north america may start off with 'less than desirable' jobs but usually make it up to decent living. a proportion of these are people who arrived as teenagers, studied in the states under student visa, received H1 and applied for immigration. another portion is full of people who applied for H1 (and/or) immigration to work in the states. Then there are the families who had enough to begin with but decided to move to the states for the better education and/or job prospects for their kids. these families were well to do to begin with and also end up owning their own businesses.

So while i don't disagree that there are many starting at the bottom of the barrel, i must argue that a significant portion of the legal immigrants are working in jobs that are respectable or at worst, less than desirable.

I meant Illegal immigrants. I thought that was obvious by the amount of times ive mentioned the only people who get accepted legally into the US and UK are generally in positions above taking these jobs.

I'm likely to be a legal immigrant to the states when im older [joy ] and I dont see myself going from higher education straight to the bottom of the employment ladder. Probably about four notches from the bottom, but not rock bottom.

My mother was a legal immigrant to the UK. She came for education and after that went on to become a high level nurse who was offered on more than one occasion a position as a "suit" at the NHS. She declined each time before retiring early.

Illegal immigrants face a completely different story. They come to the uk with no money to their name whatsoever, and theyd be extremely lucky to have a qualification to that name.

Yea ... cause in the first sentence you said illegal but in the 2nd, you made no distinction ... wasn't sure. thanks for the clarification.

I'm totally against a "comprehensive" reform bill. It should be two separate bills. Beef up border security first. Then decide what to do with the illegal immigrants that are already here. If Congress passes amnesty of any kind, Arizona and New Mexico will be completely overrun before the border people can get it together.

Yes that's a good first step, if we keep going in that direction.

My main concern is not cars though, it's that oil is used in many stages of production in the U.S. including in the manufacture of plastic, which as we know is what a lot of consumer products are made from.

I just don't see how the economy is going to avoid a harsh downturn in the next year or two if the oil price doesn't drop, regardless of fuel effeciency of cars.

Hopefully I'll be wrong. Much as I dislike Bush, I dislike harsh recessions more.

I have to agree. How is this a drain on "Americans?" We never had national healthcare anyways, so its not like we're picking up much of a tab for them. Have you been to public schools? Around here, I'd be shocked if they put ten cents into each student. The off-set of what services we provide to all "illegal" immigrants is far outweighed by the fact that they will always be the most steady consumers, will be the tenants to our landlords, and thier purchasing power still keeps huge markets going (this is akin to Motor City. Business always looks for new consumer markets).

If everyone is so troubled over how they "strain" our resources, go throw rotten tomatoes at Ken Lay, who exerted more strain on this country with the flick of his little finger in about twenty minutes than the millions of illegal workers here now. Go buy a hybrid and move closer to where you work.

And most importantly, address tax reforce. This "strain" discourse has manifested before in the microcosm of city/suburban friction. For the longest time Philadelphians lived and enjoyed wealthy space in the suburds, but drove to work and used all the resources of the city during the day. The regional tax (forgive me for not knowing the porper wording) was based on residency. Everyone demanded parking, elctricity, transportation, smooth p[aved roads, police, skyscraper maintenance, firemen, etc, in the city, but didn't give a penny to it. The suburbs they lived in reaped the benefits while needing to provide much less as far as daily services (no public transportation, no business parking, airport, general business resources, etc). This changed, and taxes were split. Less went to where one resided, but more wnet to where one worked. the city got the money it needed to provide healthy productive envirnment, and the suburbs didn't have excess, but still enough to provide basic residential needs.

Why not make these people (from everywhere) not fearful of deportation? But make sure they pay taxes? Then their money goes into the pot, and its impossible to say they're straining your resources, when they're providing them in the first place. Hell, our medicar is going and social security are already going to be gone by 2020, you'd think we'd be begging more people to pay taxes. Preferably younger ones, since we've got a reverse pyramid going under baby-boomer retirement. Make it illegal to hire people under the table if you'r so worried. If everyone gets hired legally, they pay taxes. This also ensures there won't be as much abuse in the system.

The primary loss for illegal immigrants is that they can't vote. While our idiot country takes that priviledge for granted and don't vote optionally, voting allows one to have self-determination and a say in where all those taxes should be going. Now what could possibly be more "American" than making other people pay, and only we get to decide what services get developed, and what we actually want to do with it? (By this "we" I mean all legal citizens, immgrant or native born, from anywhere).

I think the threat of criminality is horrendous. It will lead to massive abuses in the sytem, and a complete trespass of basic human rights due to threats of arrests and deportations. I also think people freak out about a couple bucks in taxes without realizing how much more security our economy and lifestyles are because, and not despite, immigration, illegal immigrants included. I think if one is going to go the route of strain on tax money, than reform how taxes are handled here. Don't throw people in jail, give them permant criminal records, and ruin the lives of every friend or family member that even lets them crash on the couch for a night over something as silly as night-shift janitorial job that you would have never even considered supporting your own children do.

An aside, I think I'm not going to post in this thread anymore, because agreeing with Krem is making me itchy

Illegal Immigrants Returning To Mexico For American Jobs

May 3, 2006

MEXICO CITY—As dozens of major American corporations continue to move their manufacturing operations to Mexico, waves of job-seeking Mexican immigrants to the United States have begun making the deadly journey back across the border in search of better-paying Mexican-based American jobs.

"I came to this country seeking the job I sought when I first left this country," said Anuncio Reyes, 22, an undocumented worker who recrossed the U.S. border into Mexico last month, three years after leaving Mexico for the United States to work as an agricultural day laborer. "I spent everything I had to get back here. Yes, it was dangerous, and I miss my home. But as much as I love America, I have to go where the best American jobs are.

article

I hate mexican food... except cheese crisps... yum

NOT THE BURRITOS!!