Nobel Winner Maathai Sounds Alarm Over Planet
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wertham
Wall-E
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:47 pm Posts: 863
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 Nobel Winner Maathai Sounds Alarm Over Planet
Quote: OSLO (Reuters) - Saying the planet is at risk from human activity, Kenyan environmentalist Wangari Maathai urged democratic reforms and an end to corporate greed when she collected the Nobel Peace Prize on Friday.
Maathai, Kenya's deputy environment minister and the first African woman to win the Peace Prize, said sweeping changes were needed to restore a "world of beauty and wonder" by overcoming challenges ranging from AIDS to climate instability.
"Activities that devastate the environment and societies continue unabated," Maathai, founder of a campaign to plant 30 million trees across Africa to slow deforestation, said in an acceptance speech at the ceremony in Oslo City Hall.
"Today we are faced with a challenge that calls for a shift in our thinking, so that humanity stops threatening its life-support system," Maathai, 64, told an audience of about 1,000 people including Norway's King Harald and Queen Sonja.
"I call on leaders, especially in Africa, to expand democratic space and build fair and just societies," she said.
"Further, industry and global institutions must appreciate that ensuring economic justice, equity and ecological integrity are of greater value than profits at any cost," she said.
What was John Lennon imagining?
A world with no countries and no religion? No boundaries?
Abolition of private property?
Capitalism will inevitably fail.
In the face of the inescapable eco-catastrophes to come, this might be the only way out. We can't just wait around for everyone to get on-side. If all resources are held in common, then everyone would have to share. As well they should.
Not communism. Something different. And infinitely more fair.
_________________ (selah)
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:51 am |
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bABA
Commander and Chef
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:56 am Posts: 30505 Location: Tonight ... YOU!
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Alway supported that idea.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:10 am |
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Anonymous
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Imagine there's no incentives it isn't hard to do nothing to work or hope for and no distinctions too Imagine all the people living life in need
You may say that I'm a dreamer but it's not like it hasn't been done Someday we'll make you join us And the world will live as one
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:22 am |
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wertham
Wall-E
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:47 pm Posts: 863
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Krem wrote: :lol: Imagine there's no incentives
Incentives to do what? The right thing? I thought virtue was supposed to be its own reward. No? We can't be totally motivated by self-interest.... CAN we? And how does THIS grab you? The results of the study show: * One child of every three lives in a dwelling with more than five people per room, or with a mud floor. * Nearly 20% of the world’s children do not have safe water sources or have more than a 15-minute walk to water. * Over 15% of children under five in the developing world are severely malnourished. In South Asia alone, more than 90 million children go hungry every day. * 134 million children between the ages of 7 to 18 have never been to school. * Girls are more likely to go without schooling than boys. In the Middle East and North Africa, in particular, girls are three times more likely than boys to have never attended to school. http://www.unicef.org/media/media_15082.htmlQuote: UNICEF: More than One Billion Children Affected by Poverty, War and AIDS
Dec 10, 2004 Washington
The United Nations children's fund says that more than half the world's children are suffering the effects of poverty, war and HIV/AIDS, denying them a healthy and safe childhood. In its annual report on The State of the World's Children released Thursday, the United Nations International Children's Fund (UNICEF) says more than 1 billion children growing up hungry and unhealthy and that governments are failing to protect them.
In the report, entitled 'Children Under Threat', UNICEF said that governments are not living up to the principles outlined in the 1989 Convention of the Rights of the Child.
"Ladies and Gentlemen, childhood is under threat. Not for mysterious reasons that strain our imaginations, but because of deliberate choices made by governments and others in power. Poverty doesn't persist because of nothing. War doesn't emerge from nowhere. HIV/AIDS doesn't spread by choice of its own. These are our choices," said executive director, Carol Bellamy.
Think about that while you're stuffing your face at lunch today.

_________________ (selah)
Last edited by wertham on Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:40 am |
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bABA
Commander and Chef
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:56 am Posts: 30505 Location: Tonight ... YOU!
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Its an issue I've had with people ... communism is made to look bad in order to make other systems look good. It doesn't focus on the problems that exist in the other system at all, just shows where one system is better than the other. Thats why I never liked the song 'Imagine' to begin with.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:43 am |
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Anonymous
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wertham wrote: Krem wrote: :lol: Imagine there's no incentives
Incentives to do what? The right thing? Incentives to accomplish something. wertham wrote: I thought virtue was supposed to be its own reward. No? We can't be totally motivated by self-interest.... CAN we? And how does THIS grab you? The results of the study show: * One child of every three lives in a dwelling with more than five people per room, or with a mud floor. * Nearly 20% of the world’s children do not have safe water sources or have more than a 15-minute walk to water. * Over 15% of children under five in the developing world are severely malnourished. In South Asia alone, more than 90 million children go hungry every day. * 134 million children between the ages of 7 to 18 have never been to school. * Girls are more likely to go without schooling than boys. In the Middle East and North Africa, in particular, girls are three times more likely than boys to have never attended to school. http://www.unicef.org/media/media_15082.htmlQuote: UNICEF: More than One Billion Children Affected by Poverty, War and AIDS
Dec 10, 2004 Washington
The United Nations children's fund says that more than half the world's children are suffering the effects of poverty, war and HIV/AIDS, denying them a healthy and safe childhood. In its annual report on The State of the World's Children released Thursday, the United Nations International Children's Fund (UNICEF) says more than 1 billion children growing up hungry and unhealthy and that governments are failing to protect them.
In the report, entitled 'Children Under Threat', UNICEF said that governments are not living up to the principles outlined in the 1989 Convention of the Rights of the Child.
"Ladies and Gentlemen, childhood is under threat. Not for mysterious reasons that strain our imaginations, but because of deliberate choices made by governments and others in power. Poverty doesn't persist because of nothing. War doesn't emerge from nowhere. HIV/AIDS doesn't spread by choice of its own. These are our choices," said executive director, Carol Bellamy. Think about that while you're stuffing your face at lunch today.
I'll do that, while you're thinking about what it was that caused these conditions in those countries in the first place.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:46 am |
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Anonymous
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bABA wrote: Its an issue I've had with people ... communism is made to look bad in order to make other systems look good. It doesn't focus on the problems that exist in the other system at all, just shows where one system is better than the other. Thats why I never liked the song 'Imagine' to begin with.
No, baba, communism is bad in and of itself. It completely ignores the individual for the sake of the elusive public good.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:48 am |
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wertham
Wall-E
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:47 pm Posts: 863
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bABA wrote: Its an issue I've had with people ... communism is made to look bad in order to make other systems look good. It doesn't focus on the problems that exist in the other system at all, just shows where one system is better than the other. Thats why I never liked the song 'Imagine' to begin with.
Well, my friend... you must admit that organized religion has been responsible for a LOT of death and destruction in this wonderful world of ours... not to mention arbitrary boundaries that define countries.
Besides, as any scientist can tell you, no one country can claim ownership of the global water supply. That WOULD be a crime against humanity. And believe it or not, if the film THE CORPORATION is to be believed, the world's water supply is most definitely being "bought up" by corporate interests. This will lead, I suspect, to the ultimate revolution.... when the people WILL be stringing up the CEOs along Wall St with piano wire.

_________________ (selah)
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:55 am |
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wertham
Wall-E
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:47 pm Posts: 863
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Krem wrote: I'll do that, while you're thinking about what it was that caused these conditions in those countries in the first place.
I have a pretty good idea what's caused them. After about a century of capitalism, the world clearly isn't even one step closer to sharing the wealth.
Malthus pretty much proved the capitalism was doomed to failure a very long time ago. What you are seeing now, I think, are the final stages.
So much for "trickle-down" economics. That old chestnut NEVER works.
And another thing: Why the hell should wealth be inherited? That may have worked during the age of feudalism... but not any more. In this age of rapidly-dwindling resources, all things should be held in common, in the interests of fairness.
What other choice is there?
_________________ (selah)
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:31 pm |
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wertham
Wall-E
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:47 pm Posts: 863
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Krem wrote: No, baba, communism is bad in and of itself. It completely ignores the individual for the sake of the elusive public good.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one.
Take the Ukrainian elections, for example.
The public good is not always so "elusive."
_________________ (selah)
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:34 pm |
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Anonymous
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wertham wrote: Krem wrote: I'll do that, while you're thinking about what it was that caused these conditions in those countries in the first place. I have a pretty good idea what's caused them. After about a century of capitalism, the world clearly isn't even one step closer to sharing the wealth. Here's a hint for you: the countries that are faced with these conditions have never seen capitalism. wertham wrote: Malthus pretty much proved the capitalism was doomed to failure a very long time ago. What you are seeing now, I think, are the final stages.  That's what I was being taught in grade school 18 years ago. In fact, that's what my parents were being taught in school too. wertham wrote: So much for "trickle-down" economics. That old chestnut NEVER works. Then why is it that the countries who have embraced capitalism are doing so much better than the countries who didn't? wertham wrote: And another thing: Why the hell should wealth be inherited? That may have worked during the age of feudalism... but not any more. In this age of rapidly-dwindling resources, all things should be held in common, in the interests of fairness.
What other choice is there?
The other choice is this: you do not lay claim to other people's money, and other people will not lay claim on your money. That's the fairest system of them all.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:37 pm |
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bABA
Commander and Chef
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:56 am Posts: 30505 Location: Tonight ... YOU!
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Krem wrote: bABA wrote: Its an issue I've had with people ... communism is made to look bad in order to make other systems look good. It doesn't focus on the problems that exist in the other system at all, just shows where one system is better than the other. Thats why I never liked the song 'Imagine' to begin with. No, baba, communism is bad in and of itself. It completely ignores the individual for the sake of the elusive public good.
Did i say it wasn't?? I just said that trying to make one thing look good by focusing on the bad of another system is a flawed way of looking at things .. I said no more.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:38 pm |
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bABA
Commander and Chef
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:56 am Posts: 30505 Location: Tonight ... YOU!
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wertham wrote: bABA wrote: Its an issue I've had with people ... communism is made to look bad in order to make other systems look good. It doesn't focus on the problems that exist in the other system at all, just shows where one system is better than the other. Thats why I never liked the song 'Imagine' to begin with. Well, my friend... you must admit that organized religion has been responsible for a LOT of death and destruction in this wonderful world of ours... not to mention arbitrary boundaries that define countries. Besides, as any scientist can tell you, no one country can claim ownership of the global water supply. That WOULD be a crime against humanity. And believe it or not, if the film THE CORPORATION is to be believed, the world's water supply is most definitely being "bought up" by corporate interests. This will lead, I suspect, to the ultimate revolution.... when the people WILL be stringing up the CEOs along Wall St with piano wire. 
wertham, considering we don't speak too much, I have trouble understanding how water supply suddenly became connected to John Lennon's song.
Yes, I do know that organized religion is responsible for a lot as well. I do not deny that. But that was not the point I was trying to make.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:40 pm |
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Anonymous
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wertham wrote: Krem wrote: No, baba, communism is bad in and of itself. It completely ignores the individual for the sake of the elusive public good. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one. Take the Ukrainian elections, for example. The public good is not always so "elusive."
There's is a very clear line between the majority will and the majority tyranny. You seem to be purposefuly blurring it.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:41 pm |
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Anonymous
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bABA wrote: Krem wrote: bABA wrote: Its an issue I've had with people ... communism is made to look bad in order to make other systems look good. It doesn't focus on the problems that exist in the other system at all, just shows where one system is better than the other. Thats why I never liked the song 'Imagine' to begin with. No, baba, communism is bad in and of itself. It completely ignores the individual for the sake of the elusive public good. Did i say it wasn't?? I just said that trying to make one thing look good by focusing on the bad of another system is a flawed way of looking at things .. I said no more.
What I'm saying is that there is nothing wrong with criticizing communism. Defending other systems by pointing out "communism is worse" is not valid, of course, but communism is not "made to look bad". It's just bad, no matter how you slice it.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:42 pm |
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bABA
Commander and Chef
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:56 am Posts: 30505 Location: Tonight ... YOU!
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Krem wrote: bABA wrote: Krem wrote: bABA wrote: Its an issue I've had with people ... communism is made to look bad in order to make other systems look good. It doesn't focus on the problems that exist in the other system at all, just shows where one system is better than the other. Thats why I never liked the song 'Imagine' to begin with. No, baba, communism is bad in and of itself. It completely ignores the individual for the sake of the elusive public good. Did i say it wasn't?? I just said that trying to make one thing look good by focusing on the bad of another system is a flawed way of looking at things .. I said no more. What I'm saying is that there is nothing wrong with criticizing communism. Defending other systems by pointing out "communism is worse" is not valid, of course, but communism is not "made to look bad". It's just bad, no matter how you slice it.
Well what you just said is what I was trying to say .. as always, I didn't word it properly. What I wanted to say is that defending other systems by pointing out communism is worse is not the right thing to do .. and sadly, thats what a lot of people do when they try defending themselves.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:56 pm |
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A. G.
Draughty
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:23 am Posts: 13347
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If capitalism fails, with it will go most of the liberal things about society you hold dear Wertham, so I wouldn't wish for that. John Lennon was full of shit.
We do need more environmentalism, but done in a way that won't make capitalism fail but will just guide it gently onto a more sustainable and productive path.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:00 pm |
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Anonymous
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Archie, I'd like to add, that Capitalism and Environmentalism are not opposing concepts, just like Capitalism and Litigation are not opposing concepts.
However, when Environmentalist groups get to shape the government policy for the sake of impeding on Capitalism, that's when things get out of hand.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:03 pm |
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dolcevita
Extraordinary
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:24 pm Posts: 16061 Location: The Damage Control Table
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Yeah but Krem, I think you're saying that coming from that angle that government policy shouldn't regulate it in the first place. Since I think it should (frankly, I don't necessarily trust some CEO of a lumber company or a tennery to do the right thing) be regulated, then yes, their should be input from envirnmentalists in building policy. Their should be input in from both sides as to how to go about creating sustainable industry both enrinmentally and fiscally. So, while I agree with you that Capitalism and Envirnmentalism aren't necessarily anagonistic tendencies, I agree with Archie that it needs to be a process that draws on "we" or, federal guidance. I'm not leaving it up to industrial and manufacturing giants. They can provide themselves with top quality medical treatment when we all develop cancer from their exploits.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:23 pm |
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Anonymous
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dolcevita wrote: Yeah but Krem, I think you're saying that coming from that angle that government policy shouldn't regulate it in the first place. Since I think it should (frankly, I don't necessarily trust some CEO of a lumber company or a tennery to do the right thing) be regulated, then yes, their should be input from envirnmentalists in building policy. Their should be input in from both sides as to how to go about creating sustainable industry both enrinmentally and fiscally. So, while I agree with you that Capitalism and Envirnmentalism aren't necessarily anagonistic tendencies, I agree with Archie that it needs to be a process that draws on "we" or, federal guidance. I'm not leaving it up to industrial and manufacturing giants. They can provide themselves with top quality medical treatment when we all develop cancer from their exploits.
If you can attribute the damage done to your lungs to a company/companies, you can sue them for the damages. There is no need for the government to involve itself in the regulating process.
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:32 pm |
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Anonymous
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Besides, the government is not likely to act in your interests in the first place. How many times have we heard the excuse that somethinng is "vital to the national interests" to shield the corporations from the potentially damaging regulations?
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:33 pm |
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wertham
Wall-E
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:47 pm Posts: 863
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Krem wrote: Here's a hint for you: the countries that are faced with these conditions have never seen capitalism.
Virtually the entire African continent is in serious jeopardy. Many of the these countries have been in ruins since the days of The Great White Father. Colonialism was one of the many malevolent manifestations of Capitalism. It is clearly the intention of Dubya and the Bush League to revive the age of Colonialism and impose THEIR will upon the rest of the world.
All systems of government are inherently evil, and as Karl Marx explained, MUST eventually "wither away," as a fully co-operative society evolves. When YOUR survival depends on the prosperity of your community, then you will willingly and enthusiastically support the community in all possible ways.
Oh, and BTW: What do you think Uncle Sam does when he needs young men to fight his wars. He pretty much REQUIRES that they enlist, so you see, there really isn't any difference between East and West in that respect.
And another thing: ironically, China has become a Capitalist's dream come true, as it supplies the cheapest labour of the world with the fullest blessing and strongest support of the State. (And like the USA, China has a gov't that can never be voted out of office.)
_________________ (selah)
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:47 pm |
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wertham
Wall-E
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:47 pm Posts: 863
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Krem wrote: If you can attribute the damage done to your lungs to a company/companies, you can sue them for the damages. There is no need for the government to involve itself in the regulating process.
Because of a totally corrupt legal system (see the entire judiciary of Texas or details), the only way you will ever be able to even make a dent in the armour of the corporate collective these days is by participating in a class-action suit that will, in the end, only make money for the trial lawyers - the same cats Dubya has vowed to emasculate in his second term.
_________________ (selah)
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:55 pm |
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wertham
Wall-E
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:47 pm Posts: 863
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Krem wrote: Besides, the government is not likely to act in your interests in the first place. How many times have we heard the excuse that somethinng is "vital to the national interests" to shield the corporations from the potentially damaging regulations?
You mean the federal gov't as DUBYA defines it. The Bush League has no interest in regulating ANY corporate activity. Clear Skies was paradoxically created to give Industry the power to pollute air, earth and water AT WILL - with complete impunity.
Which is why they've installed a revolving door at the EPA.
Don't forget: this is a man who is willing to destroy national park-land in his neverending quest for OIL. Americans have no protection against polluters in this respect, as these same polluters invested vast sums of money in his re-election.
_________________ (selah)
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Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:05 pm |
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Anonymous
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wertham wrote: Krem wrote: Here's a hint for you: the countries that are faced with these conditions have never seen capitalism.
Virtually the entire African continent is in serious jeopardy. Many of the these countries have been in ruins since the days of The Great White Father. Colonialism was one of the many malevolent manifestations of Capitalism. It is clearly the intention of Dubya and the Bush League to revive the age of Colonialism and impose THEIR will upon the rest of the world.Extraordinary claim put the burden of proof on you. WHat you said is by no means "clear". wertham wrote: All systems of government are inherently evil, and as Karl Marx explained, MUST eventually "wither away," as a fully co-operative society evolves. When YOUR survival depends on the prosperity of your community, then you will willingly and enthusiastically support the community in all possible ways. This statement is contradictary. The difference between capitalism and communism is that capitalism DOES NOT require a government to keep it in place; all the transactions are made between private parties. With communism, on the other hand, the society requires that everyone participates in that system. The only way to ensure that is to force each and every person, because no matter what you say, not everyone will WILLINGLY participate in a system that does not reward merit. wertham wrote: Oh, and BTW: What do you think Uncle Sam does when he needs young men to fight his wars. He pretty much REQUIRES that they enlist, so you see, there really isn't any difference between East and West in that respect. An argument rendered meaningless considering the fact that a professional army has been proven to be more effective than an army of conscripts and nobody (except for some Democrats) talks about the draft anymore. I think you're intent on destroying your arguments today. wertham wrote: And another thing: ironically, China has become a Capitalist's dream come true, as it supplies the cheapest labour of the world with the fullest blessing and strongest support of the State. (And like the USA, China has a gov't that can never be voted out of office.)
China is not a capitalist country. They make become one at some point, but it does not remotely fit the definition now.
As for the government's being elected or not: do you ever accept the possibility that Kerry simply lost?
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