Nowhere except the proof that he pleasured himself enough to have two kids. The second child showed it wasn't an accident the first time. That doesn't mean he liked women the same, but he doesn't have to to be bisexual. He was arroused enough by a woman and her vagina enough to burst his load into her. That's enough to qualify as taking pleasure.

Remember that one comment I gave you hell for a while back in the Oscar forum? That, and your lack of enthusiasm may have people putting you in the "haters" camp. There isn't anything with not looking forward to BBM, but, yes, when you have a bunch of people riled up over an issue like this, they might perceive it as being not-so-friendly towards them. I dunno about this stuff, but thats how it seems. I don't see why people care anymore. So long as people are interested in discussing the movie more, and the viewers less...

You'd probably burst your load if you were masturbating with an apple pie, but that doesn't mean you're attracted to it. The vagina is an ideal place for *that* and he did have affection for her, but that STILL does not make him a bisexual. Intimate love is so different from the type of love he had for her, imo.

I definitely disagree. I would NEVER be able to substitute a man for a woman and pretend it was a woman. If I was bisexual, as Ennis was, I could. There is no difference. He was a bisexual. More inclined to embrace his passion with men, but still had attraction to women.

It should enter IMDb top 250 quite soon. Currently average 8.0 with 15,518 votes.

IMDB's formula is way too weird and suspicious. Cinderella Man has less than 15,000 and stands at 8.0/10 and yet made it on the list already and currently sist at #222. I believe it first entered the list with less than 10,000 votes.

Yeah, indeed it's weird. By any measure, Cinderella Man's numbers don't seem superior. The average score from Top 1000 voters is only 6.8, and the overall average is 7.99, if we get to the second decimal, while Brokeback has an 8.00 (but its average from Top 1000 is only 6.8 too). Maybe the extreme 63.1% 10's/9.4% 1's split has something to do with it.

Must be it because BBM's Arithmetic mean is 8.6 whereas CM's is just 8.3. All goes for BBM, except for the harsh split. Maybe they wait till the haters/fanboys votes level off.

Here are extreme examples of when Top 1000 Users votes really get a movie down:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0294870/ratings

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0332280/ratings

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379786/ratings (!!!)

hm.

What a wonderful movie (yes, I am a straight male and I loved it). Great performances from Heath Ledger (who is absolutely terrific and Oscar-worthy), Jake Gyllenhaal, Michelle Williams (Oscar-worthy also), and Anne Hathaway. Emotionally powerful, beautifully filmed and wonderfully scripted (which includes my favorite dialogue scene of the year), Brokeback Mountain is one of the best films of 2005 (second only to King Kong). A

Did anybody else think that Jake Gyllenhaal's hair kinda resembled plastic "vampire" hair that can be found at costume shops during Halloween?

Excellent movie.

I thought it took a little while to light a fire under itself and break our actors out of their monotone trance, but once it did it was smooth sailing right to the end. Particularly effective was the scope of the story and how over this long period of time, Jack and Ennis' burden of keeping their relationship a secret eats away at them. Heath and Jake are both pretty outstanding and special mention should go to Hathaway, who brings a real spark to her small role. I thought the scene between Lureen and Ennis on the phone was probably the best in the movie. However, I am kind of baffled at the high praise and awards love for Michelle Williams. She was decent, but kind of came off as a wet blanket during most of her screen-time.

Of course I adored the natural setting in the movie, kind of a character in itself really and it's nicely photographed. Ang's direction is simple and matter-of-fact, which I think is actually very appropriate. There's nothing overtly stylistic here. It's kind of the opposite of a movie like The New World, which revels in its natural environment and has its characters bleeding into it. Brokeback puts the characters more up front and the engagement is in their dialogue. Both strategies paid off.

A lovely score as well.

A-

Glad to see you like it, Mav! I agree, I think both Ennis and Jack are bi sexual. There are some theories (Kinsey) that gay-->bi-->straight is a continuous scale. On that scale, I would say that both are bi, but Ennis is closer to the straight side and Jack much closer to the gay side.

Lecter, have you seen it yet? There are movies that one can discuss without seeing, but this isn't one of them. BBM isn't totally groundbreaking, but I think it is unique in that it's the first film (that I know of) in which the gay relationship is clearly seen rather than implied, but doesn't involved AIDS or aspects of the colorful gay "lifestyle." People go into this movie spouting off about the gay aspect (postivie or negative), but when they come out, they seem to have put the gayness on the back burner. This is why the BBM fans get all defensive. Fans want to talk about love, loss, relationships, society, or tolerance, while those who haven't seen it insist on talking solely about the gay aspects of it. It's annoying.

Never saw never, I sure many a men who went to prison and slept with men never imagined themselves being aroused or having an orgasm with a man. I realize that is an extreme situation, but still, its not as simple as I am straight I could never get aroused by a amn, that maybe true of you quite frankly we'll never know, but another man maybe to use his imagination to overcome that for whatever reason. If you were blindfolded and got a blow job, who to say what gender the person is? People are often aroused by things they never thought, for example extremem violence.

What makes this film so good is that unlike most films with gay character the film never tries to definet eh sexuality of Jack and Ennis for us, its just shows how they fall in love and deal it. So I find the debate over whether either character is gay/bisexual to be sort of pointless, its seems ot me to be an oversimplificaiton of what occurs in the film.

Not out here till March 9th.

Ok, well I'm probably gonna catch New World today and don't wanna have too many films floating around in my head, so here's a real short take.

First, I honestly don't think the film is anything all that special technically. The score is more catchy than great or haunting or even appropriate. Yes, it's goregous, but lets be realistic - every other shot covers a couple square acres (miles?) of rolling green hills, bright blue and white skies, rocky mountains and choppy lakes. When you put a man on a horse in front of that scenery, well that's rule number one in making a "pretty" film. I just wasn't blown away with any of the techs. The acting was pretty great on the part of the two leads, but I didn't see anything in their wives (or most of the supportors, really). To be honest, I think Jake was better than Ledger most of the time (but that's probably because I couldn't stand the way the latter spoke, and it came off as forced.) Basically, I was extremely underwhelmed.

But all that could have been written off, if the story was as powerful or strong as many believe. It just is not. I think someone else mentioned this in the thread, but I just did not buy their love. On the mountain, there's just nothing to suggest that either of them are gay (or even bi) so when they it comes out I'm just not believing em. I guess I can buy that Jack felt something towards Ennis and wanted to act on it because it seemed in his character to do so. But as far as Ledger's character goes, I didn't see or feel anything more than just "buddies." Here's my story, tell me yours, it's a long summer, I'm glad for your company. It just came too much too quick and didn't work.

Pretty much everything "off brokback" (aka the twenty years that follow) didn't especially work either. I'm sure this is just because I didn't believe the begining and didn't see anything that would keep them coming back to each other. Meh.

The film definitely picks up towards the end though. From the phone call (which was the best acted of the film, probably, despite the otherwise untolerable Princess Diary) on. Everything gets good alla sudden. I finally believe Ennis' feelings because Ledger finally convinces me. The stuff with the parents was great. But it was too little too late.

I dunno. I love to love a movie, and considering the reviews I was really hoping I could add another A- or so to this steadily strengthening year. But none of it really worked.

But, on the other hand, It could also be said that everybody who "ferociously" attacked the film are straight?

(BTW, if we "ferociously" defended, there must have been a "ferocious" attack, right?)

I never attacked anyone for not liking the film... How could I, if I hadn´t seen it myself? (Just saw it on friday, BTW) I defended the movies cause people were implying that It was being loved cause of its subject matter, whish is kind of a lame argument (And again, It can be turned upside down. If somebosy says "You like it cause you are gay" It can also be said "You don´t like it cause you straight" or "You don´t like it cause you are homophobic", and each and every one of those arguments sounds equally lame to me).

Having seen the film now, I can say It´s clearly gay (In the sense that It tells a love story between teo guys) but It´s not a gay movie. When I say "gay movies" I tend to think of films like "Beautiful thing", who have elements that are almost exclusive to the gay experience (like coming out, for example). Those movies are about "being gay", and although they speak of universal feelings, the facts that the details of the story are specifically related to gay life serve as a excuse for some people to think that they will never be interested in it, cause there´s no way they can relate. But BBM is different in that sense - there are no elements in everybody´s experience that are not relatable somehow, unless you have never felt regret, first love, loneliness, or sorrow for a time in your life in which you were completely happy and that will never come back.

So, I guess what people really mean with "not a gay movie" is, go and see it, and you eil probably find that the feelings behind it are pretty much universal.

I'm still in the camp that it was Jack's story that needed to be told and if anyone was in love, it was Jack. Ennis, outside of their bedroom embrace, never seemed really happy. The breakdown didn't click with me, I didnt buy it. Ennis didnt seem to care about anyone, not his family, not himself, not Jack.

Sounds callous but he came across as a mentally slow, abusive, drunk to me.

I'd definitely agree with this...of the two, Jack was certainly the one in "love" and really the more complex character...too bad he takes the backseat. (I don't necessarily "buy" his "love" for Ennis (at least initially), either, but at least they make it clear that making a move makes sense for this man, and that he really does have feelings for other men.)

I see why you (and some others out there) didn't buy their love. I just saw the movie for a fifth time yesterday and I think I can comment on this criticism now HUGE Spoilers ahead...


I call your attention to the scene where Ennis asks Jack if he wants any of the hot water he had been using to shave. Jack says no. Ennis then goes off to the side, undresses fully, and begins washing. Ang Lee leaves the camera focused on Jack's face with a nude Ennis in the background. I was expecting Jack and/or Ennis to glance over. But Jack doesn't look over. Why? It really bothered me the first time I saw the movie. Why even have the scene then?!? But then I saw the movie again , I noticed a small detail that enlightened me: Jack takes a huge gulp clearly visible by movements oh his adam's apple. So what you say? They have to suppress their lust, love, curiosity, whatever it is. And while they do get together sexually later, I don't think they are ever really able to overcome their own fears and confusion about they got going on. (Well, it could be argued that Jack does to an extent).

Contrary to some of the comments and reviews out there, this is NOT Romeo & Romeo. This is not Jack & Jack (Titanic.
The story is NOT a sweeping romance of boy meets boy and they live happily ever after. It is a tragedy. A HUGE one.

There is absolutely no romance in the movie because none existed. You have Ennis, a man so overcome with fear that he becomes someone who is nowhere, who is nothing as per his own words. Jack, full of life in the first of the movie, clearly turns into a resentful and bitter man. Laureen follows a similar path. Alma is arguably the only one who escapes it by marrying again and starting a new family.

So how do we know that Ennis and Jack loved each other within all of this tragedy and sadness and repressed emotions? You have to look for the little signs, the small details. This is why I think the movie is movie brilliance, why Ang Lee deserves a directing oscar, why the actors were so great, why the score compliments the film so magically.

Some of those details:

1. Beginning of the movie when Ennis and Jack are waiting for Randy Quaid's character to arrive... both Ennis and Jack "check each other out" but never with a head-on glance... Jack uses his sideview mirror; Ennis with quick side glances while staring down...
2. Ennis orders soup instead of more beans saying he is sick of beans, clearly for Jack though sicne Jack is vocal about "no more beans"
3. Ennis' anticipation before they meet again after 4 years
4. Jack driving up immediately after finding out about Ennis' divorce

Perhaps those who don't see that these two guys loved each other do so because their is a significant lack of physical intimacy in the movie between Ennis and Jack.

Ennis Del Mar is not a gay man. He is a man tormented by his desires and feelings, scared to death of what others might think if it ever came to be known by anyone other than Jack and himself. You can't expect him to be very romantic and lovey dovey. But the small signs are there that of all the people that Ennis had in his life, the ONE person that ever touched him emotionally was Jack Twist.

The last scene with his daughter is important because we get a hint that perhaps Alma Jr. will now benefit of a slighlty more open Ennis.

I saw that as well when I watched the film.

I couldn´t agree more with all this. I wanted to add a couple of things more, but It´ll take some time... maybe later.

Loyal, I agree that Ennis is an abusive alcoholic. Part of what makes the movie so great to me is that I an understand why that man is the way he is, and even empathise with him. In thats ense, Brokeback is the tragedy of one man, of many men actually, that have been trapped for a long time by a reclusive idea of what masculinity means, of how they should be, no other possibilities avalaible, no alternatives in their lives.

Romeo and Juliet and Titanic are tragedies. There is no happily ever after in either film. I wouldn't even classify this as a "huge" one. The film's love story is not necessarily about being "ripped apart by forces unknown from your one true love", it's about subtle missed opportunities and choices made mostly by the main characters. It's about indecision, and to me, does not qualify as a huge tragedy.


No, it's because the short-change in Jack's character and he is the initiator and the one who drives the relationship. Even, as you posted, Jack scenes are all about Ennis. Ennis is the primary character, and the movie is VERY one sided so much so that we have to *guess* the reasons for Jack's death. Ennis himself isn't necessarily a "fountain of love", so when we get to the points of the story where Ennis is supposed to be broken up over the events of the film it just feels hollow.

The faults of the movie are not about it being boy on boy or whatever, it's just that it is a limited story about a selfish and conflicted man, and the stories around him, mostly Jacks... are not handled with the grace that Lee handles Ennis' story.

That's a solid point.

I mean, when they first had sex, Ennis was drunk and removed virtually any passion from the situation that may have transpired if Jack continued to lead. Ennis stopped Jack in his tracks and well, there wasn't a lot of passion. Just rage and oppurtunity.

I do see your point. But I think Jack's story wouldn't be as exciting though. I mean, I can't think of a specific example right now, but the whole I'm in love an unavailable guy" thing has been done, gay and staright.

This is Ennis' story. It is his brokeback mountain. You do have a valid criticism though. I think the movie did miss the scene where Ennis breaks down after learning of Jack's news. Not sure if it wouldn't be in character or not, but it would have been a tear-jerker for sure.