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 The Fallujah thread 
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Draughty

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:23 am
Posts: 13347
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68 dead in one week

All for a battle no one really expects to change anything.


Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:26 am
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Archie Gates wrote:
68 dead in one week

All for a battle no one really expects to change anything.

Does that mean that if it does change something in the end, you'd be all for it?


Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:32 am
Extraordinary
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:24 pm
Posts: 16061
Location: The Damage Control Table
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Krem wrote:
Archie Gates wrote:
68 dead in one week

All for a battle no one really expects to change anything.

Does that mean that if it does change something in the end, you'd be all for it?


Not unless I was The Prince.

Which I'm not.

-Dolce


Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:33 am
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dolcevita wrote:
Krem wrote:
Archie Gates wrote:
68 dead in one week

All for a battle no one really expects to change anything.

Does that mean that if it does change something in the end, you'd be all for it?


Not unless I was The Prince.

Which I'm not.

-Dolce

:?

Not sure I get it.


Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:35 am
Extraordinary
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:24 pm
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Location: The Damage Control Table
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Krem wrote:
dolcevita wrote:

Not unless I was The Prince.

Which I'm not.

-Dolce

:?

Not sure I get it.


:shock: I think this might be the first and last time in my virtual life I make a literary/political refence you don't get. I hope everyone is taking notes, because by tomorrow we would have reverted to the norm.

Machiavelli's *The Prince*

-Dolce


Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:39 am
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dolcevita wrote:
Krem wrote:
dolcevita wrote:

Not unless I was The Prince.

Which I'm not.

-Dolce

:?

Not sure I get it.


:shock: I think this might be the first and last time in my virtual life I make a literary/political refence you don't get. I hope everyone is taking notes, because by tomorrow we would have reverted to the norm.

Machiavelli's *The Prince*

-Dolce

*loks over his cultural references cheat sheet*

Won't happen again.


Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:43 am
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Experiences of an Iraqi doctor in a Fallujah hospital


Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:00 am
Waitress in LA

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:41 pm
Posts: 24
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Congrats one the American military showing once again that they have awesome and superior firepower. reducing a city to rubble in no more than a week!

Did you also know the Earth revolves around the sun?


Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:41 pm
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MightyEldo wrote:
Congrats one the American military showing once again that they have awesome and superior firepower. reducing a city to rubble in no more than a week!

Did you also know the Earth revolves around the sun?

Between that and sitting on one's arse waiting for the bombs to go off, I choose the former.


Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:22 pm
Extraordinary
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Here we go, but the info seems a bit sketchy in this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/18/international/middleeast/18cnd-iraq.html?hp&ex=1100840400&en=acd7ab8762e092fc&ei=5094&partner=homepage wrote:

Several Insurgent Bases Found in Falluja, U.S. General Says

[i]everal command and control centers operated by insurgents have been discovered in Falluja, a top Marine officer said today, but he denied reports that one of them was the headquarters of the Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

A great amount of intelligence material was recovered at the centers, including computers and ledgers listing fighters, the officer, Lt. Gen. John F. Sattler, commander of the First Marine Expeditionary Force, said at a briefing outside Falluja, west of Baghdad.

The general added that stiff fighting continued today in the southern part of Falluja, but he asserted that the battle in the former insurgent stronghold had "broken the back of the insurgency" and "has disrupted them around the country."

His statement came only a day after clashes continued in the northern city of Mosul, though they were diminished compared with Tuesday's fighting. But new battles flared in cities across the Sunni Triangle, from Rami to Bayji to Kirkuk.

Today, insurgents detonated a car bomb near an Ameican military convoy in Baghdad and a roadside bomb exploded at a job recruiting center in the northern city of Kirkuk in attacks that killed four people, the police and officials said, according to The Associated Press.

The Baghdad attack occurred near the Yarmouk police station as an American armored vehicle drove by, Capt. Ahmed Shihab of the Iraqi police told the news agency. Two people were killed and five wounded by the blast, he said. The American military had no immediate information on casualties.

The Kirkuk attack killed two civilians and wounded three others, Gen. Anwar Mohammed Amin of the Iraqi National Guard told The A.P....[i]


Its good they found some computers because its clear they didn't encounter people, and that most of the place had long been cleared out. An empty shell? Probably, seeing as how coupled with their boisterious announcement that the backbone of the insurgency has been broken, at least two other reported incidents in different regions occured. Its like attacking the shell of a snail when its already relocated to a new home. I still don't think we're much closer to seeing this resolved, and with all of the call-back refusals the U.S. could do one of two things. Hit up the unemployed and jailers, or tickle ideas of a draft. I don't see the latter one happening, but I don't see them granting reprieve of jail sentences either (and we have suspicions to where that can lead anyways). Unemployment lines? Join the military. Even that might not cut it seeing as how there's a new demographic of unemployed people that really won't go that far for what is still not a particularly strong salary (considering the risks).


Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:58 pm
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Between 1000 and 2000 terrorists killed=an empty shell?


Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:01 pm
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I don't understand how you expect a quick resolve to the whole thing. Nobody ever said it would be quick, and nobody ever said there wouldn't be a resistance.


Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:03 pm
Draughty

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:23 am
Posts: 13347
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Lead iraqi insurgent Zarqawi's command center found.

Was the command center some underground tunnel or bunker? Was it hidden away in the back of a mosque where American spies coudln't find it?

Nope

According to CNN's footage, the suspected al-Zarqawi command center was in an imposing house with concrete columns and a large sign in Arabic reading "Al-Qaeda Organization"

AP article

I mean jeez. Is our intelligence so bad that we couldn't have found and bombed that before?


Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:50 pm
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The Incredible Hulk
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Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 pm
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There is a great article on NYTimes on the savagery of the urban warfare from the point of view of regular marines fighting in Falluja... Here is the first page... It's a really good read... I totally admire these young men... To be truthful I couldn't do it (by choice I mean...)

The reason, I'm linking it because sometimes I feel that we discuss consequences/solutions (in a 'dry, CNN-way' of the mainstream media) of the War in Iraq on these boards ad absurdum (nothing wrong with it...) but we are missing the human dimension/daily struggles of these kids/men fighting there (maybe it is a bit different for someone who has family member/s in Iraq):


In Falluja, Young Marines Saw the Savagery of an Urban War
By DEXTER FILKINS

Published: November 21, 2004

FALLUJA, Iraq, Nov. 18 - Eight days after the Americans entered the city on foot, a pair of marines wound their way up the darkened innards of a minaret, shot through with holes by an American tank.

As the marines inched upward, a burst of gunfire rang down, fired by an insurgent hiding in the top of the tower. The bullets hit the first marine in the face, his blood spattering the marine behind him. The marine in the rear tumbled backward down the stairwell, while Lance Cpl. William Miller, age 22, lay in silence halfway up, mortally wounded.

"Miller!" the marines called from below. "Miller!"

With that, the marines' near mystical commandment against leaving a comrade behind seized the group. One after another, the young marines dashed into the minaret, into darkness and into gunfire, and wound their way up the stairs.

After four attempts, Corporal Miller's lifeless body emerged from the tower, his comrades choking and covered with dust. With more insurgents closing in, the marines ran through volleys of machine-gun fire back to their base.

"I was trying to be careful, but I was trying to get him out, you know what I'm saying?" Lance Cpl. Michael Gogin, 19, said afterward.

So went eight days of combat for this Iraqi city, the most sustained period of street-to-street fighting that Americans have encountered since the Vietnam War. The proximity gave the fighting a hellish intensity, with soldiers often close enough to look their enemies in the eyes.

For a correspondent who has covered a half dozen armed conflicts, including the war in Iraq since its start in March 2003, the fighting seen while traveling with a frontline unit in Falluja was a qualitatively different experience, a leap into a different kind of battle.

From the first rockets vaulting out of the city as the marines moved in, the noise and feel of the battle seemed altogether extraordinary; at other times, hardly real at all. The intimacy of combat, this plunge into urban warfare, was new to this generation of American soldiers, but it is a kind of fighting they will probably see again: a grinding struggle to root out guerrillas entrenched in a city, on streets marked in a language few American soldiers could comprehend.

The price for the Americans so far: 51 dead and 425 wounded, a number that may yet increase but that already exceeds the toll from any battle in the Iraq war.

Marines in Harm's Way

The 150 marines with whom I traveled, Bravo Company of the First Battalion, Eighth Marines, had it as tough as any unit in the fight. They moved through the city almost entirely on foot, into the heart of the resistance, rarely protected by tanks or troop carriers, working their way through Falluja's narrow streets with 75-pound packs on their backs.

In eight days of fighting, Bravo Company took 36 casualties, including 6 dead, meaning that the unit's men had about a one-in-four chance of being wounded or killed in little more than a week.

The sounds, sights and feel of the battle were as old as war itself, and as new as the Pentagon's latest weapons systems. The eerie pop from the cannon of the AC-130 gunship, prowling above the city at night, firing at guerrillas who were often only steps away from Americans on the ground. The weird buzz of the Dragon Eye pilotless airplane, hovering over the battlefield as its video cameras beamed real-time images back to the base.

The glow of the insurgents' flares, throwing daylight over a landscape to help them spot their targets: us.

The nervous shove of a marine scrambling for space along a brick wall as tracer rounds ricocheted above.

The silence between the ping of the shell leaving its mortar tube and the explosion when it strikes.

The screams of the marines when one of their comrades, Cpl. Jake Knospler, lost part of his jaw to a hand grenade.

"No, no, no!" the marines shouted as they dragged Corporal Knospler from the darkened house where the bomb went off. It was 2 a.m., the sky dark without a moon. "No, no, no!"

Nothing in the combat I saw even remotely resembled the scenes regularly flashed across movie screens; even so, they often seemed no more real.

HERE IS THE REST...

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Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:47 pm
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