In my case and others I know, God didn't respond immediately. It took time. But I believe it's God's will to heal. Jesus never told anyone in the Bible that he wouldn't heal them. He healed everyone and was motivated by compassion. When a blind man asked Jesus if He would heal him, Jesus said "I AM willing!"

Of course faith shouldn't give up without immediate results. Would that be real faith? But faith without works is also a dead faith. I think alot of times people just give up to quickly.

Yeah. I don't really want to bring up my own personal beliefs, suffice it to say I've never seen anything such as you just said Todd. I believe in a certain elemnt of realism, but that's exactly what i find so beautiful and a transcendental connection.

I think the "Doubting Thomas" and I know that comes off as harsh, but its true, is for a faith that relies on having seen or witnessed something "unexplaneable." And was the faith missing before that? Is it only confirmed afterwards because of the memory of walking on water?

There's plenty that can be explained, and plenty more that can't and will be in the future. None of it is a miracle, but there is a miracle in how the universe "works." Doesn't matter if it can be explained by Physics...isn't physics part of the beauty? The aspects of workings that are bigger than any one person or place?

Ugh, I'm not making any sense. Just read what Krem said above. : )

But you could interprete those things differently. Healing could be physical and/or spiritual. What happened to your wife/relatives could very well be a fortunate coincidence. When I was born, I wasn't breathing for close to 5 minutes, yet my mom never prayed for my health (we're not religious). Still, I survived. Was that a miracle or was I simply fortunate?

What about hundreds of millions of people who were killed by ruthless tyrants? Were they all just not religious enough?

dolce, did you just call me "doubting Thomas"?

Flashbacks....

The thing is, I had religious faith for years and years before I ever saw or experienced "a miracle" so my faith doesn't rely on that. But true Chrisitanity isn't about reciting a prayer a certain number of times or following a religious list. It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. If we know Jesus and His character, we understand who He is first and what He does second. It's impossible to separate those two.

Reading the New Testament it's interesting to note that in spite of all Jesus' recorded miracles, many people refused to believe He was Messiah, ESP. the religious leaders of the day. If someone already has a mindset against something, they won't change their mind easily, regardless of the evidence.

I never said that. All of the original twelve apostles were martyred for their faith. Church history says only John wasn't and he was left on an island to starve to death but didn't die. I think those guys were all pretty 'spiritual' and they experience tremendous suffering. Yet they had seen and experienced something so powerful they were all willing to die for it.

I respect your faith, and I'm not saying that you're wrong for believing, I'm just pointing out that miracles are not a proof for existance of God, and if anything, if they exist, they show that God is unkind to some people while is kind ot others. I doubt that's the message you want to send out to non-believers.

You cite the New Testament. Yet it is not a historical document. Apart from it, it's really hard to find references to Jesus in historical documents of that time, let alone to the miracles performed by him.

:-s

Nope. I called people that need to have "seen" or "experienced" a direct miracle Doubting Thomases.

But those Flashbacks...do tell...

@Todd, Sure, but the same could be said for someone who is saying something now and doesn't have a warm reception. I'm not really going to try and convince anyone not to believe in a religious figure, just that new life is always being brought to the table. Hanging onto 2000 years ago can be equally about dead faith as well.

Here's how I see it. The human mind can only grasp so much. So we have ourselves a limit...a room. The room is around us, and we can't see beyond the walls. There's a sense, for me that is, that there's something beyond those walls. That's it.

The minute we try and articulate it, even in these brilliant texts, is when it is then restricted to the limits of our minds. Every once in awhile someone comes along who can think "bigger." To be equal here, all the prophets, fathers of institutions, philosophers, artists, etc. They manage to "speak" to us about still using our restricted language.

What they do, is then make the room bigger. So now we can see a little more, and have learned to incorporate new understandings within our own limits.

But it's still just a bigger room. Nothing that's yet been said can make the leap beyond those walls because of our own minds, and nothing ever will. There will always be something beyond that room, and we're never going to get it. All our religious figures didn't get it, though they understood a little more than we did, gave it to us, and we now occupy a bigger mental jailcell. More people are going to come along, and if we're not recpetive to them, not only are we not going to see beyond the walls, we're not even going to be able to make a bigger room.

I respect your postion Krem but I also believe that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. I believe God has made every provision for humanity in the person of Jesus Christ and yet it's up to every individual to receive that. Faith isn't something passive. It's active and powerful. It expects and doesn't give up.

It's like that argument that a loving God would never send anyone to hell. The Bible's postion is that God doesn't want anyone to perish. That's why He sent Jesus. Yet man still has a free will that can reject God's provision. It's the same with healing. God has made provision for healing in the form of Jesus Christ if we will receive it.

Again, what about the example I've cited. Because my friends received some miracles does that mean God is unjust? How do you explain what they experience even if my situation was just a lucky coincidence?

IMO god is too nice,if i were god i would make you all my slaves and bed every hot woman on earth.

Well, that would mean that God is unjust because there are many people who I'm sure are just as religious and who love God just as much who go through horrible pains and are not cured. As to the explanation: I don't know. I am not a doctor, nor am I very good at explaining things. Maybe the original x-rays used faulty film? Maybe the x-rays were mixed up with somebodu else's? Who knows. Just because we cannot explain something does not make it a miracle.

Dolce: my cousin used to always call me "doubting Foma (Thomas in Russian)" because I never believed the outrageous crap he came up with. We used to fight a lot when we were kids because of that.

There is no valid reason to believe in miracles. Hume proved that centuries ago.

However, you can do so if you like, as, for a person of faith, facts don't matter.

But no sea was ever parted, and no God ever called on Abraham.

I always dislike these examples because the only ones that are brought up are the successful ones. Just about everyone who has ever had a serious health problem has had someone praying for them, seriously so, and most don't get cured, but you never hear about those. It's actually kind of insulting to all the people who do pray for their loved ones and don't get results: apparently God doesn't love them.

I'm also certain that if we did some research we would find examples of atheists and nonbelievers who suddenly had reverses in their bad health as well. It's not like these things are impossible; they do happen. (And X-Rays have been found to have been wrong too.)

What really is insulting, I think, is when there is a great accident like a plane crash and some survivor says "God was looking out for me." How must the families of the ones who died feel when someone says that?

edited for clarity and spelling

So devout Jews can't receive this? How about all the people on earth who existed before Jesus, what did they do? And all the people in the parts of the world who never heard of Christianity, they can't get it either?

Man, this God guy is tough.

Limbo


Nevermind.

Oh Groucho, that's ridiculous! Those who died were clearly sinners and deserved death. And those who survived are bound to die sometime later as well.




Why did you remove the sexual content? That was the best part... [-X

[quote="Groucho]

I'm also certain that if we did some research we would find examples of atheists and nonbelievers who suddenly had reverses in their bad health as well. It's not like these things are impossible; they do happen. (And X-Rays have been found to have been wrong too.)

[/quote]

So now I should question medical science and technology also?

Question everything. That's the point.

So when there's concrete proof of something, you dismiss it? What about the other symptoms? The swollen head? The bleeding? Even if you don't admit it's a miracle, how can you explain the unexplainable?

Excuse me, there are still some words you have not placed into my mouth yet. :???:

Questioning everything doesn't mean you never come to a conclusion. I mean, if you will excuse the colloquialism, DUH.

As to your example, the answer is "I don't know." How to explain these things? I don't know. And neither do you.

The difference between me and you is that you are willing to believe in something which you have no concrete proof of to explain what you don't know.

well, you did say X-rays have known to be wrong....that's pretty dismissive.

So if my friend's parents hadn't prayed in faith, would he still have been healed? Probably not.

Are you saying that X-Rays are never wrong and that they are, like the pope apparently, infallable?

As for your proposition that someone would not have been healed without prayer, you have absolutely no evidence of that and never can, so please trying to use it as some kind of proof.

When a person dies you will see that jesus is the one and only way and that he is the son of god,people who have not heard of jesus in this life will also find out his story in death and they will make a choice once they see jesus is the truth.

Back to the miracle thing.

Personally, I side more with Krem on the issue. Those who don't receive the benefits of a "miracle", does that mean they're not worthy or whatever? I think that if God really wanted us to live in a free world (which I think he does...if he exists), than wouldn't the existance of divine interventions and miracles be an infringment on our own freedom. When you think about it, the only way we could truly be free would be to be part of an obsucre and random universe...sans miracles :wink:

Mike, what does the Pope have to do with this? I'm not Catholic. I never said the Pope was infallible.

And I'm not a lawyer either, but are x-rays admissable in court as evidence? Just curious.

It's interesting that some people who demand the most proof are the quickest to doubt it when it presents itself.

Look, I'm not going to convince you of anything. Your bias is clear from the title of this thread. But you're not going to convince me either. Am I biased? Of course.