OK, here is where you believers can try to convince me with your proofs of God and where I knock down every one of your arguments. Go ahead.

Refute the first mover explanation; how everything must have a cause. Keep in mind that htis chain must stop at one point in time or else without a starting point we'd have nothing now. Sooo the first mover must be god or an entity that was not created but simply always existed.

L Ron Hubbard believes that we were descendents of aliens and we have surpressed memories that hinder our potential to be the best that you can be. We have to be audited and hold these tin metal cans and we have to be asked a series of questions that can maybe unlock our darkest secret and hopefully release our feared anxiety. Can you diss this Travolta religion? They wanted tax breaks so hence the term religion attached to its name

There was an answer here and then the damn web froze and I lost it. Must be God angry with me.

I will now try to recreate my answer:

Two problems with this assumption: First, that there was a first mover. In this day and age, with what we know of quantum physics, it may very well be that time and space are kind of meaningless in many ways; the simple act of observing changes the outcome for instance. Maybe it has always been this way. Just because we cannot phantom this in our limited way does not mean that the answer must be "omnipotent being." Sometimes we just don't know, and it's far wiser to say "I don't know" than to make something up.

Second, even if there was a first mover, it does not follow that it is an intelligent omnipotent being.

Sweet. I like this thread. Could a mod perhaps move this to a regular forum after this forum is switched to another person and Mike V's threads are locked? I want this thread to stay alive. :razz:

PEACE, Mike

I dont know enough of the first point, but the second point, how would you then explain things such as Phi the number found all over nature?? Doesnt that connote some form of intelligence/organization?

They're loonier than all other religions. Hubbard was a SF author who years earlier had written an article about how to become a millionaire by creating a religion. It's all BS, just like the Mormons and many other cults, created for a leader to be able to manipulate people to give him money.

Almost all "proofs" of God start with the premise that there is a god and therefore we can find evidence to show it. The "phi" argument is one of those. This is bad logic, and is the same logic creationists use all the time. You are finding patterns in nature and assuming that therefore it must have been planned that way instead of that it evolved that way because it was the most efficient form. You already have your conclusion so you look for evidence to prove the conclusion.

Can this number be found in nature by some form other than a supernatural being planting it there? Yes of course. No laws of nature have been violated. So why choose the option that requires you to violate the laws of nature?

If there are two answers to your question, and one is possible and the other is impossible, why would you choose the impossible one?

How did everything start and why if there is no God?

I don't know.

That's the problem with all religion. They take what we don't know, make up an answer to make us feel better, and then treat that answer like it's a fact.

Ancient people didn't know where lightning came from, so they made up Zeus throwing thunderbolts from Mount Olympus. Whenever there was something that could not be explained, they made up gods or demons or leprechauns.

I think this is intellectually dishonest. If you don't know, try to find out -- don't make up an answer.

How do you explain miracles? Especially massive miracles such as the one witnessed by 70,000 people in Portugal around 1917??

Strange how these miracles never seem to happen in modern society where we can videotape stuff and have it scientifically proven, huh? Unless you count the virgin mary appearing in a cheese sandwich.

The Fatima "miracle" had many witnesses, each of whom was a massive believer and almost all who described the scene completely different. More than half saw nothing, by the way, and others described visions no one else saw. (They claimed the sun moved about in the sky -- why no one else on the entire planet saw this, why there were no tidal waves or other forms of destruction are easily explained by saying "It's a miracle!" instead of saying "Hmm, maybe it never happened.")

None of it would stand up in a court of law, no one was cured of cancer, no one walked on water, no one took pictures, and all that happened were a bunch of people said they saw something.

Further, this miracle happened just as Portugal was on the verge of totalitarian takeover, and the Catholic church was being attacked by the politicians... what we need now is a miracle to stir the people into believing! Great timing!

Once more: if something can be explained without having to resort to the supernatural, then the non-supernatural explanation should govern.

If God really wanted us to believe, how about a real miracle that absolutely no one could deny, instead of one that only a few believers who want to see a miracle will find? Heal all the wounded in every hospital, turn all guns into butter, and appear in the sky and say "Hey, it's me, God." No one will deny God then.

You, sir, are very smart... God where are all the stupid ppl?? I want to feel smart again ](*,)

I'm also a lot older than most everyone here, and read a whole lot. When you're my age you can say things like this and make young kids think you're smart, too.

Only a lawyer. :wink:

I met God yesterday. He performed a miracle. It was cool. I also asked him to do give me x ray vision for 1 hour. I got to see lots of boobies. he then prophesized that you'll make this thread today. You did.

God exists.

QED.

Funny how you would use a gift from god to look at boobies.

BLASPHEMER!

You seen those sensor squares on tv?? I was provided with those. Damn FCC!!

What do you think God does up in heaven all alone? Help the needy? Pssh. Forget that. He wants boobies.

But, but....if God doesn't exist....what am I supposed to belive in? Where does that leave...SAnta Claus? The milk man? I've never seen him.

You know, if God suddenly appeared in the sky, like in some sort of jumbo-size, I think everyone would shit their pants at the same time.

Let's see you take down the design argument: :wink:

Basically, the design argument states that since everything in nature seems to be put together in just the right manner, it is possible to assert that an intelligent designer was accountable for its creation.

A more impiracle example: Say you find a watch lying somewhere on a beach. You pick it up, examine it, and realize that it has a clear function and is complex in its structure. It is obviously logical to assume that the watch has a designer. Due to its complexities, that watch could not have come about without the innovations a superior being -- in this case, a human. This example can also be applied to the human body and all other living organisms in nature. Obviously we were not responisble for our own creation, so who is?

Other facts that support the argument:

The earth's distance from the sun requires it to receive the exact amount of energy to support life. The slightest change could exterminate our existance by destroying our ecosysystem.

Any shift in the balance between protrons and neutrons would mean that no solid objects could weigh more then one gram.

The make-up of atoms is extremly precise (falls under the watch example).

And I can go on and on...but I got an exam tomorrow...on philosophy :wink:

I was raised Catholic, by a Catholic family that didn't and doesn't attend church regularily, and now we don't even go in Christmas Eve. Quite the religious family. But, of course Mike your statements make so much sense, I just don't know what to believe in. People rationalize and reason for God all the time, saying it's all a big mystery, and I would like to believe that "God works in mysterious ways", but I just don't know. I don't pray, either. If there is a God, I don't think burdening him with my problems is a good thing at all. Is there a God? Is there a heaven? Who knows? All I know is that now I grow older, my belief in it is getting smaller and smaller.

I'm a spiritual person myself but I think ID (intelligent design) is stupid. It's not really a science for one thing, since it starts with the conclusion and only accepts facts or imperical data that fit the conclusion while filtering out everything else. ID is simply a backdoor to Creationism. In that sense, it can't be "taken down" because it's not really a true argument to begin with.

What you have to look at is not the evidence that supports ID, but the evidence that contradicts it. Vestigal organs, evolutionary dead ends, and profound inefficiency found all throughout nature. Like any real argument, 100 positive statements don't prove it absolutely true but one negative statement can prove it absolutely false. But because ID is essentially religious in nature, it simply ignores the negative statements that undermine it or finds a way to explain them away.

According to observable fact, either the Designer in ID was terribly incompetent and inefficient, or there is no ID. You can take your pick. Believing anything else isn't based on anything real or factual or scientific but rather a product of pure faith. Which is fine, but it's not an argument or a science and should not be peddled that way.