I think Rey having no special past is the best movie in a franchise like this EVER. I am sick to death of everyone always being related to one another! Why can't we just have new characters with their own stories to tell!?

They should have done that with Force Awakens. Totally new characters. But they went for a huge cash grab by bringing back the old characters. Now they can deal with some fan backlash for shitting on those characters. Not that Disney cares. More money is more money.

They absolutely could have handled bringing back the OT better. Rian Johnson is correct that at this stage, they serve best to push the new characters forward. Of course and understandable. However, live in reality and know there is still a minimum of fan service that we must be provide to the older folks.

That we never saw a shot of Han, Leia, and Luke together again is BEYOND shame.
Han and Luke dying in the films and Leia IRL kind of screws them.

The next film is the last of this trilogy. None of the OT got what most would say they deserved from these films, IMO. Luke they can still save, but Han and Leia are screwed.

Rey was set up to be a related to someone Why else did they not give her a last name, and have that scene where they the lightsaber calls out to her and she hears voices of people she never met? Rian just dumped all of that. If JJ had directed he likely would have followed through that plot thread

And that would have been so lame. Put me in the camp that is happy she's a nobody. Why does everything have to be related to some OT character. We can't move on if folks keep getting stuck with past characters. Also, the force is what drew the Saber to her. Blame the force for trying to create a light user to compete with kylo.

Imho, the endless teasing of Leia's death throughout the movie was in rather poor taste given Carrie Fisher's real life death.

Exactly.

Plus, once you reflect on the actual message of the film, it makes sense that we were setup to think Rey was to be related to someone. Sometimes we have to let go of the past and look into what is happening now. As a stand alone movie, this really gels.

Snoke getting killed was shocking to say the least. I feel they completely ruined the mystery surrounding him that JJ set up in TFA. I wonder how Abrams feels about the movie. Thank God he's returning for the next one but with Snoke and Luke being killed off for no reason I fear it's too late. Ben being the main villain just doesn't sit well with me.

I couldn't agree with you more KC.

At least Han and Leia seem to be mostly the same people, just a little older. Luke is a completely different person in this movie. Hamill himself called it a radical departure and he is 100% correct. They will never "fix" that issue in the eyes of some fans.

So, my initial feeling immediately following Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi is that the film is the worst film of the series, and reading a variety of reviews and reactions since has not improved its position yet in my mind. Initial thoughts:

*SPOLIERS AHEAD*

Huge problems:

Luke's role in the trilogy so far: a big nothing burger. After being a dick to Rey for half the movie he eventually gives in and gives a few quick and dirty words about the nature of the force and what it means to be a Jedi, and appears at the end to connect with Leia briefly, create a small diversion for the rebellion, and then die. He figures he will be more useful in death than in life. Given what he actually does in the movie, he is surely correct about that. Also, he doesn't seem to have tried very hard to prevent Ben Solo from going dark. Rather, he is tempted all at once to just dispatch him in his sleep. This is the guy who turned Vader from the dark side! Hard to believe he would turn on family that easily. Then again, Lucas did establish that quickly flipping a switch to the dark side may be something inherited in the Skywalker genes.

Rey's past: massive nothing burger. Everything built up about the mystery of her abilities and her past is roundly squashed by this movie. Perhaps Kylo was lying to her about her past, which is my hope. She's the only interesting character left in the movie.

Snoke: huge nothing burger. Unless they do something very cool in episode IX. After all the mystery created and built up in The Force Awakens, he's just a vague big ugly bad guy with some Sith powers and uninteresting dialogue who is rather easily dispatched by Kylo. Again, unless there is something we don't know yet to be revealed.

Rose: nothing burger new character whose main role was to purposefully crash into Finn as he heroically attempts to sacrifice himself to save the rebellion. She could have killed them both AND screwed the rebellion.

Finn: more or less a nothing burger. He makes a real go at one last big heroic act but is thwarted by Rose. He takes out his old Storm Trooper boss, though it isn't that impressive of a fight. And it isn't very believable - he wins by sheer protagonist power. He was much more interesting and useful in the last film.

Thank goodness for the crystal ice wolf creatures. Between Luke merely providing a distraction and Rose thwarting Finn's heroic act, they are the ones who show the rebellion through the back door to escape the cannon and sure annihilation.

Oliver Twist has the force: why am I supposed to be excited about this kid who shows up right before the credits roll with the force? So any scrappy kid from nowhere can have a high midichlorian count - like Anakin and Rey, as far as we know so far? Is that the message of the film as relates to the force? It's mostly random, or will it turn out to be more genetic than that, or... who knows. Point being, there is no reason whatsoever as of yet to be interested in a kid we know nothing about who has the force.

The lesser problems, but still problems:

Leia: doesn't have a whole lot to do other than scold Poe for disobeying authority to save the day. At least she got a chance to use the force, albeit after oddly surviving a disaster that left her floating in space. But in two full movies, knowing she has the force, we get to see virtually nothing of it, just some vague military strategy knowledge.

Kylo: still a whiny bitch, but at least he is conflicted in some form. Unlike Anakin in Sith, who just flips a switch and hits the ground running straight into the dark side. I did like it when he offered Rey to rule the galaxy with him. Like grandfather, like grandson. Kylo's whole character though is a huge testament to how much of a failure Han and Leia are as parents. So bad he barely manages not to kill both of them. Or maybe it's largely just that instant-flip-to-the-dark-side gene skipping a generation.

Yoda: showing up a little late to the party to goad Luke, and burning the Jedi historical books. Yoda, burner of books and trees. Great! Nice to see him though.

Light Saber fighting: I really thought it was the last movie's role to show how the Jedi are lost, and have to rebuild, hence not so much in the way of big light saber duels. With Luke being teased at the end of the last film and presented with a light saber, that seemed to promise that in the next movie, some shit was going to go down with light sabers. But hell, apparently Rey is already better at combat than the guy who held his own against Vader. There was some decent stuff, I just really expected more.

Phasma: cool character. Could have been taken out in an epic fight scene. She should be super badass as a Strom Trooper boss. She was easily taken out essentially by Finn's screen presence and good guy status and will power, not so much his actual fighting skill. Should have been more of a Darth Maul like fight - she could have taken on Finn plus someone else simultaneously. Her demise was so uneventful I can barely remember it.

Del Toro and Dern: mostly boring supporting roles. At least they were slightly more than 1 dimensional, but not by a whole lot.

The casino/stampede/code breaker quest: a big mess. The idea of a code breaker character seemed like it might be fun and interesting until nothing really ever came of it.

Poe: disobeying authority to try to do something heroic and getting scolded for it. That was sort of his theme. The Rebellion isn't very cohesive, as seen between him and Leia and Dern's character.

Just some initial thoughts.

I agree with all of this. We are two movies in and IMO the The First Order is still kind of a joke as far as villains go. I mean you got Domhnall Gleeson hamming it up to 11 in both of these movies and doing nothing but making funny faces and getting chewed out and disrespected by everyone. Captain Phasma is even more of a disappointment, because she looks badass, but hasn't done jack shit and the so called payoff we were suppose to get with her character in this movie is nothing short of weak sauce. I'll admit that Driver does a great job of making Ben Solo an interesting and even somewhat captivating antagonist, but that's not enough for me to say I get behind him being the main threat of the next movie.

They'll never match what we got from Vader/Tarkin/Palpatine in the original movies. Likewise with the protagonists. None of them are as interesting as what we got in the original movies. BB-8 is the most interesting thing in the new series.

The die hards mythologize the originals way too much. Where were the cries of Yoda dying and not fighting? Where were the cries of Palpatine having no background, seemingly no powers, and going out like a punkass bitch? Yes, Vader was a boss. Kylo Ren is a very intriguing villain and Rey is a very likable person.

That said: they should announce that this is no longer a trilogy and make it a 4 film series. Its hard to imagine clean wrap ups to everything in just one film.

Palpatine got Darth Vader bowing down to him and even speaking to Luke about how he needed Luke's help to destroy the Emperor (ESB "I am your father" scene). We saw Palpatine's force lightning in ROTJ. We also saw how he took over in the prequels. Palpatine was hands down the best thing about the prequel movies, especially Sith.

Tarkin vs. Hux...not even close. I would take those little jackass military guys that Vader is always Force-choking in the original movies compared to Hux.

Rey...pretty boring. She is more powerful on Day 1 than every other character in the history of the franchise with decades of training behind them. Leia in the original movies was a lot more interesting and she didn't use the Force. Always enjoyed her sarcastic sense of humor, especially going back and forth with Han. Luke's journey in the original movies seemed a lot stronger than we are seeing with Rey. Part of that is we saw him struggle to learn everything instead of just having incredible Force powers right away.

Poe...boring as fuck. Finn...boring as fuck. You think these characters match up at all with Han or Lando? Heck no. And I shouldn't even have to get into the Kylo vs. Vader issue. Rey herself settled that debate in TFA when she dressed down Kylo's weaknesses.

Obi-Wan and Yoda as the mentors in original trilogy versus grouchy Luke in the new one? Yeah it's not even close. The filmmakers took a giant shit on Luke's character, perhaps because they didn't want people to think it was a direct copy of Obi-Wan's character in A New Hope.

Newer is not always better. See Donner vs. Snyder for Superman or Burton/Nolan vs. Snyder for Batman. As Vader said, "Search your feelings, you know it to be true."

You're talking preference while I am merely pointing out that the new series is hardly slacking relative to the old films. Tis all I be saying

Kylo Ren automatically became a laughable villain when was defeated in the first movie by a girl who only picked up a lightsaber for the first time ever pretty much that very day

The Empire was defeated by a first time fighter pilot who just flew an x-wing...that day?

SW fanboys becoming like the DC haters totally unable to see past their hypocrisy

not necessarily. The entire X-Wing team got wiped out except for Luke and Wedge and Luke would have died if Han Solo hadn't saved him at the last minute. The Death Star and Empire definitely felt like greater threats that would have succeeded if it weren't for some luck

That would be the ultimate insult to the vision of Star Wars established 40 years ago. Sure, that vision has already been corrupted and Disneyfied, but there's no need to shit on the history of the franchise. The new owners can go and make dozens of side movies and additional trilogies to cash-in on their investment.

They established how powerful Chewie's weapon was (Killing 3 stormtroopers at one point) and Kylo not only took one right to the gut, but he kicked Finn's ass and took it easy on Rey as he was never trying to kill her in that battle.)

Do people really not understand that?

Subtle storytelling is lost on a lot of people. To be fair the original trilogy championed itself on following classic archetypes.

so? He was probably at least trying to disarm her and couldn't even manage that. Kylo was pathetic

The more I sit on the film the more brilliant I find it to be

Literally this movie just fucked with us and I love when movies fuck with us. Would we be having these debates had everything gone according to fan theories? No.