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Neostorm
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Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:48 pm
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StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: That has nothing to do with my question. You CAN'T choose which one you want: If I choose A, he is not omniscient because he KNEW I would choose B. I did not "choose" B - I was basically forced too. If I absolutely cannot choose A - which I can't, then it is not a choice but it was predestined and therefore there is no free will. Now, answer the question: Can I choose A? Yes or no. Simple as that. I decide to choose option A, God knows this. Does tthis undermine my free will? No.
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:40 pm |
 
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Tyler
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 StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: Jon Lyrik wrote: Ok, let's try a new method for today. Rather than poking holes in the Bible, which is too easy, let's try debating the methods of this alleged "god".
What drove "god" to sort of "reform" from the OT to the NT? In the OT he has the liking of killing of a maniacal dictator (I don't see how anyone could debate how the OT "god" is not driven by extreme cruelty), in the NT, he sends down his "son" to sort of clean the slate. His "son" is a bleeding-heart liberal, hanging out with the poor and even prostitutes, trying to help them, when in the OT "god" would have wiped them out sooner (at least the prostitutes) than guide them to his "light".
What do you think made "god" change, box, and why? Although I am not Christian and I am not Box. I think I can give a pretty good explanation on why this happens. In the OT, there is no Jesus. So therefore in the OT when you sin - you die (or sacrifice) - but in the NT, when you sin, you ask Jesus and you're saved. God felt mercy on his people and sent his son down to die, and that's why he became so loving. Because of Jesus. Hope this helped! According to the NT, Jesus=an entity of "god". Overall, though, your explanation made no sense. Wbat made "god" feel mercy on his people?
Jesus was allegedly sent down by "god" to clean the slate of humanity (and also to spread "god"'s will, being a rabbi). The part I ()'d is what makes little sense.
"God" in the OT has the mercy and compassion of a serial killer. Then his son comes down to earth, allegedly preaching his word, but the word that his son preached is far different and filled with far more compassion than what was in the OT. Why?
Anyway, this is not so much of a debate now, I guess.
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:41 pm |
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Star Wars
Indiana Jones IV
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:18 pm
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Location: Alderaan
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neostorm wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: That has nothing to do with my question. You CAN'T choose which one you want: If I choose A, he is not omniscient because he KNEW I would choose B. I did not "choose" B - I was basically forced too. If I absolutely cannot choose A - which I can't, then it is not a choice but it was predestined and therefore there is no free will. Now, answer the question: Can I choose A? Yes or no. Simple as that. I decide to choose option A, God knows this. Does tthis undermine my free will? No. Stop skipping the question. If I have 2 choices, A and B and God knows I will choose B, can I choose A? Yes or no.
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:42 pm |
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Star Wars
Indiana Jones IV
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:18 pm
Posts: 1638
Location: Alderaan
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Jon Lyrik wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: Jon Lyrik wrote: Ok, let's try a new method for today. Rather than poking holes in the Bible, which is too easy, let's try debating the methods of this alleged "god".
What drove "god" to sort of "reform" from the OT to the NT? In the OT he has the liking of killing of a maniacal dictator (I don't see how anyone could debate how the OT "god" is not driven by extreme cruelty), in the NT, he sends down his "son" to sort of clean the slate. His "son" is a bleeding-heart liberal, hanging out with the poor and even prostitutes, trying to help them, when in the OT "god" would have wiped them out sooner (at least the prostitutes) than guide them to his "light".
What do you think made "god" change, box, and why? Although I am not Christian and I am not Box. I think I can give a pretty good explanation on why this happens. In the OT, there is no Jesus. So therefore in the OT when you sin - you die (or sacrifice) - but in the NT, when you sin, you ask Jesus and you're saved. God felt mercy on his people and sent his son down to die, and that's why he became so loving. Because of Jesus. Hope this helped! According to the NT, Jesus=an entity of "god". Overall, though, your explanation made no sense. Wbat made "god" feel mercy on his people? Jesus was allegedly sent down by "god" to clean the slate of humanity (and also to spread "god"'s will, being a rabbi). The part I ()'d is what makes little sense. "God" in the OT has the mercy and compassion of a serial killer. Then his son comes down to earth, allegedly preaching his word, but the word that his son preached is far different and filled with far more compassion than what was in the OT. Why? Anyway, this is not so much of a debate now, I guess. Why? Because he sent Jesus for our sins when in the OT they did not have Jesus.
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:43 pm |
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Tyler
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StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: Why? Because he sent Jesus for our sins when in the OT they did not have Jesus. And what brought him to send Jesus to us?
God (after mowing down and mowing down people mercilessly for thousands of years): "You know what? I think I'll soften up, for no real reason at all."
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:46 pm |
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Star Wars
Indiana Jones IV
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Location: Alderaan
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Jon Lyrik wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: Why? Because he sent Jesus for our sins when in the OT they did not have Jesus. And what brought him to send Jesus to us? God (after mowing down and mowing down people mercilessly for thousands of years): "You know what? I think I'll soften up, for no real reason at all." To save us from hell.
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:47 pm |
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Tyler
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StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: To save us from hell. ...after thousands of years of not giving a shit.
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:48 pm |
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Star Wars
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Jon Lyrik wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: To save us from hell. ...after thousands of years of not giving a shit. He did give a shit, and that's why he sent them. First God needed prophets for his "Messiah" to save the Jews.
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:49 pm |
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Neostorm
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StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: neostorm wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: That has nothing to do with my question. You CAN'T choose which one you want: If I choose A, he is not omniscient because he KNEW I would choose B. I did not "choose" B - I was basically forced too. If I absolutely cannot choose A - which I can't, then it is not a choice but it was predestined and therefore there is no free will. Now, answer the question: Can I choose A? Yes or no. Simple as that. I decide to choose option A, God knows this. Does tthis undermine my free will? No. Stop skipping the question. If I have 2 choices, A and B and God knows I will choose B, can I choose A? Yes or no. God knows you will choose whichever choice you decide to, if you decide to choose B, then god knows your decision before hand. Just because god knows what you will choose beforehand doesnt mean that you lack the ability to choose. And yes you can choose either A or B, God will always know what you choose, BUT YOU STILL CHOOSE IT. God will never be in that siutation that you mention above. I phoned him and he/she confirmed this.
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:54 pm |
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Tyler
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StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: Jon Lyrik wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: To save us from hell. ...after thousands of years of not giving a shit. He did give a shit, and that's why he sent them. First God needed prophets for his "Messiah" to save the Jews. ...also while mercilessly slaughtering people by the thousands and even millions. That's Christ-like compassion alright.
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:55 pm |
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Star Wars
Indiana Jones IV
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Location: Alderaan
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Jon Lyrik wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: Jon Lyrik wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: To save us from hell. ...after thousands of years of not giving a shit. He did give a shit, and that's why he sent them. First God needed prophets for his "Messiah" to save the Jews. ...also while mercilessly slaughtering people by the thousands and even millions. That's Christ-like compassion alright. Well he is God (even though he most likely does not exist) and he can do it if he wants. When you kill your SIMS characters or make them suffer, do you really care? But then again, you're not "love." Eh, why am I trying to defend the bible? It's too hard with all it's problems and contradictions!
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:56 pm |
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Star Wars
Indiana Jones IV
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Location: Alderaan
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neostorm wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: neostorm wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: That has nothing to do with my question. You CAN'T choose which one you want: If I choose A, he is not omniscient because he KNEW I would choose B. I did not "choose" B - I was basically forced too. If I absolutely cannot choose A - which I can't, then it is not a choice but it was predestined and therefore there is no free will. Now, answer the question: Can I choose A? Yes or no. Simple as that. I decide to choose option A, God knows this. Does tthis undermine my free will? No. Stop skipping the question. If I have 2 choices, A and B and God knows I will choose B, can I choose A? Yes or no. God knows you will choose whichever choice you decide to, if you decide to choose B, then god knows your decision before hand. Just because god knows what you will choose beforehand doesnt mean that you lack the ability to choose. And yes you can choose either A or B, God will always know what you choose, BUT YOU STILL CHOOSE IT. God will never be in that siutation that you mention above. I phoned him and he/she confirmed this. You are still skipping the question. Can I choose A or not? If I cannot choose A - then I DO lack the abilitiy to choose. Now answer the question. With a "yes" or "no."
And God is a he - Goddess is a she. Don't be like a feminazi who claims God is a she and the Devil is a he.
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:56 pm |
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Neostorm
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StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: neostorm wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: neostorm wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: That has nothing to do with my question. You CAN'T choose which one you want: If I choose A, he is not omniscient because he KNEW I would choose B. I did not "choose" B - I was basically forced too. If I absolutely cannot choose A - which I can't, then it is not a choice but it was predestined and therefore there is no free will. Now, answer the question: Can I choose A? Yes or no. Simple as that. I decide to choose option A, God knows this. Does tthis undermine my free will? No. Stop skipping the question. If I have 2 choices, A and B and God knows I will choose B, can I choose A? Yes or no. God knows you will choose whichever choice you decide to, if you decide to choose B, then god knows your decision before hand. Just because god knows what you will choose beforehand doesnt mean that you lack the ability to choose. And yes you can choose either A or B, God will always know what you choose, BUT YOU STILL CHOOSE IT. God will never be in that siutation that you mention above. I phoned him and he/she confirmed this. You are still skipping the question. Can I choose A or not? If I cannot choose A - then I DO lack the abilitiy to choose. Now answer the question. With a "yes" or "no." And God is a he - Goddess is a she. Don't be like a feminazi who claims God is a she and the Devil is a he. Call God whatever you want, i'm being gender neutral. And i'm saying htat i can't answer that question, bc that situation would never exist.
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:59 pm |
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Star Wars
Indiana Jones IV
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:18 pm
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Location: Alderaan
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neostorm wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: neostorm wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: neostorm wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: That has nothing to do with my question. You CAN'T choose which one you want: If I choose A, he is not omniscient because he KNEW I would choose B. I did not "choose" B - I was basically forced too. If I absolutely cannot choose A - which I can't, then it is not a choice but it was predestined and therefore there is no free will. Now, answer the question: Can I choose A? Yes or no. Simple as that. I decide to choose option A, God knows this. Does tthis undermine my free will? No. Stop skipping the question. If I have 2 choices, A and B and God knows I will choose B, can I choose A? Yes or no. God knows you will choose whichever choice you decide to, if you decide to choose B, then god knows your decision before hand. Just because god knows what you will choose beforehand doesnt mean that you lack the ability to choose. And yes you can choose either A or B, God will always know what you choose, BUT YOU STILL CHOOSE IT. God will never be in that siutation that you mention above. I phoned him and he/she confirmed this. You are still skipping the question. Can I choose A or not? If I cannot choose A - then I DO lack the abilitiy to choose. Now answer the question. With a "yes" or "no." And God is a he - Goddess is a she. Don't be like a feminazi who claims God is a she and the Devil is a he. Call God whatever you want, i'm being gender neutral. And i'm saying htat i can't answer that question, bc that situation would never exist. The situation exists all the time (if God is real)! A and B are variables, I am sure you knew that. I mean, the question is just like saying "Can I choose go to McDonalds (a) or Burger King (b)?" or "Can I choose Red Shoes (a) or Blue Shoes (b)?"
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:00 pm |
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Tyler
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StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: Jon Lyrik wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: Jon Lyrik wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: To save us from hell. ...after thousands of years of not giving a shit. He did give a shit, and that's why he sent them. First God needed prophets for his "Messiah" to save the Jews. ...also while mercilessly slaughtering people by the thousands and even millions. That's Christ-like compassion alright. Well he is God (even though he most likely does not exist) and he can do it if he wants. When you kill your SIMS characters or make them suffer, do you really care? But then again, you're not "love." Eh, why am I trying to defend the bible? It's too hard with all it's problems and contradictions!Now you see what I'm talking about! :wink:
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:02 pm |
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MovieDude
Where will you be?
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:50 am
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I'm Jewish...
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:02 pm |
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Neostorm
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Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:48 pm
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Location: Toronto
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StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: neostorm wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: neostorm wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: neostorm wrote: StarWarsEpisode7 wrote: That has nothing to do with my question. You CAN'T choose which one you want: If I choose A, he is not omniscient because he KNEW I would choose B. I did not "choose" B - I was basically forced too. If I absolutely cannot choose A - which I can't, then it is not a choice but it was predestined and therefore there is no free will. Now, answer the question: Can I choose A? Yes or no. Simple as that. I decide to choose option A, God knows this. Does tthis undermine my free will? No. Stop skipping the question. If I have 2 choices, A and B and God knows I will choose B, can I choose A? Yes or no. God knows you will choose whichever choice you decide to, if you decide to choose B, then god knows your decision before hand. Just because god knows what you will choose beforehand doesnt mean that you lack the ability to choose. And yes you can choose either A or B, God will always know what you choose, BUT YOU STILL CHOOSE IT. God will never be in that siutation that you mention above. I phoned him and he/she confirmed this. You are still skipping the question. Can I choose A or not? If I cannot choose A - then I DO lack the abilitiy to choose. Now answer the question. With a "yes" or "no." And God is a he - Goddess is a she. Don't be like a feminazi who claims God is a she and the Devil is a he. Call God whatever you want, i'm being gender neutral. And i'm saying htat i can't answer that question, bc that situation would never exist. The situation exists all the time (if God is real)! A and B are variables, I am sure you knew that. They are? Now you have persuaded me.
[/sanity]
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:03 pm |
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Star Wars
Indiana Jones IV
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:18 pm
Posts: 1638
Location: Alderaan
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neostorm wrote: Call God whatever you want, i'm being gender neutral. And i'm saying htat i can't answer that question, bc that situation would never exist. The situation exists all the time (if God is real)! A and B are variables, I am sure you knew that
They are? Now you have persuaded me.
[/sanity] I mean, the question is just like saying "Can I choose go to McDonalds (a) or Burger King (b)?" or "Can I choose Red Shoes (a) or Blue Shoes (b)?"
I edited it. Of course "A" and "B" are variables. It is only obvious! I really hope you get some tutoring in Geometry class!
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:04 pm |
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Rod
Extra on the Ordinary
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:50 pm
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MG Casey wrote: Rod wrote: If, even though it wasn't my intention, MG tells me right now he felt offended by any single thing i said...i want him to feel free to say it to me right now, and I WILL apologize. No, you didn't offend me or anything. This is what my religion is about. Telling others about it. Good 
I don't think understanding is such a bad thing. If most of us were able to see things from another person's point of view, even if we didn't always agree I think the wordl would be less about Christians vs Muslims, republicans vs Democrats, gays vs homophobes, etc all the time.
But it's obvious some of my comments are bothering at least some, and the reason I mostly stay out of controversial threads because I've seen the mess they can turn into, why change that now. That and I don't think I'm gonna be getting the answers I'm looking for :razz: _________________ Best Actress 2008
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:12 pm |
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Tyler
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MovieDude wrote: I'm Jewish... I know I've told this joke before, but I have to share it with others.
There are only three black Jews--you, Jesus and Whoopi Goldberg.
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:27 pm |
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andaroo1
Lord of filth
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:47 pm
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And Sammy Davis Jr.
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:32 pm |
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lovemerox
Forum General
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:16 pm
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Location: Down along the dixie line
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Jon Lyrik wrote: MovieDude wrote: I'm Jewish... I know I've told this joke before, but I have to share it with others. There are only three black Jews--you, Jesus and Whoopi Goldberg. :???: _________________
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:34 pm |
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Dkmuto
Forum General
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:00 am
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MG Casey wrote: lovemerox wrote: MG Casey wrote: lovemerox wrote: lol...dude you really cannot expect someone to say "Oh, someone just told me what christanity was in 10 minutes....im gonna be christian now!" Well, he's practiced Buddhism (now warning: I know very little about Buddhism), he hasn't ever been saved. So even without the 10 minute thing he would go to hell. he would go to hell just for being buddist? Even if he had never heard of Christianity? Oh, I had forgot you had mentioned that too. It's the same thing with the Indians and African tribes. If you have a chance to reject Christ, you have heard of Christ. If you haven't, then you are going to heaven. You'd have to be really isolated nowadays to be like that, though. Speaking of "isolated"...
But no, really. I'm not trying to condescend to you, MG, but when you're on the topic of religion and in a debate with such well-versed posters as box and Rod (yes, you, Rod!), it helps to not be so black and white about things, even if the topic is, yes, Christianity.
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:38 pm |
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insomniacdude
I just lost the game
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:00 pm
Posts: 5868
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Jon Lyrik wrote: Here's a little mindbender.
Can God create a rock he can't lift? If he can't create it, he can't do everything. But then let's say he does create the rock, but if he can't lift it, he can't do everything.
I asked my parents this one a long time ago, they decided to ignore the mindbender and go--"God can do everything." Atlas could!
/me bows down to Atlas
Atlas is my savour! _________________
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:03 pm |
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bABA
Commander and Chef
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MovieDude wrote: I'm Jewish... I'm so sorry.
hee hee
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| Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:31 pm |
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