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 why the heck didn't the republicans choose McCain for pres? 
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Hatchling
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Post why the heck didn't the republicans choose McCain for pres?
I know this may be an old hat to you, but I don't quite get why you didn't choose McCain over Bush all these years ago. I can understand quite easily that most of you didn't want Kerry .... but McCain ... isn't he much more ... "American"? I mean, Bush had it so easy, rich daddy, connections etc etc. McCain worked and suffered for his reputation. Isn't the often-praised american system one of the wo(man) that works his way upwards?

Well, of course it's your country, but just to give a german perspective I'd really like to say with a straight man like McCain many in Europe would feel much safer.

Some explanation would be nice to hear ... never found much about it online.

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Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:39 am
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Because many republicans felt he couldn't win.

He was from a small state (Arizona) ... compared to Bush who was from Texas. He was a relative unknown to most people ... where Bush had a family name riddled with politics.

Bush had money as well, and lot's of it. He could run ads he could do alot of things. McCain should end up being are next president ... and I think Bush was a steping stone to that.


Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:15 am
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You know, I started thinking about it once I realized much of the last two american elections evolved around values - faith, family and such. For me, McCain represents integrity, and also humanity, in a way. For example, I don't think Bush really cares much about the deaths in Iraq, and Abu Ghureib and such. There's this old story how he joked about a prison inmate in death row asking for pardon ... really nasty, for my taste. McCain simply knows suffering, and although there would still have been war with him it would have taken a different course. I think McCain would have exploded if Abu Ghureib would have happened under his government. And there would have been less suspicions that the government were involved.

Much of the resistance against Bush's politics in the world deals with his person. You love him or hate him, there is little inbetween. At least that's how it looks like in the german medias.

I guess it shows that I have great respect for McCain. And I really have.

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Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:43 am
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Well that is why the media is horrible.

They always paint thing's to white or black. There are no shades of grey with them because that is not what sells.

The truth is I voted for Bush, but I too would have much rathered Mccain. Almost all of what you say rings true, but the reason Bush one has very little to do with the values you mentioned. That does not however mean that values didn't play a role ... religious beliefs to be sure.

Religion among other things, played a very important role in this election.

I agree that the war would be much different under McCain, but the fact many people miss is there still would BE a war. The mistreatment of some captured Iraqies asside, I think many things would still be the way they are now.


Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:58 am
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Post Re: why the heck didn't the republicans choose McCain for pr
tallDD wrote:

Well, of course it's your country, but just to give a german perspective I'd really like to say with a straight man like McCain many in Europe would feel much safer.


I live in Europe and I feel pretty safe now :lol:

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Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:20 am
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Hmm. Thing is many politicians in the world not only mistrust Bush but actively loathe him. Nelson Mandela even said he is nuts.

Be that as it may ... hopefully someone like McCain, or McCain himself, will have the chance he deserves some day in the future.

Even if Bush is good for your country, which I guess is what many americans think, according to the american wife of my best friend, there needs to be some balance, don't you think?

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Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:21 am
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I think we're forgetting his run in the primaries in 2000. He did run, America didn't vote for him.

There are many reasons why "they" meaning "voters in the 2000 primary election" didn't vote for him.

Most of them suck however.

And lets just say, Swift Vets for Truth wasn't the first time someone with a strong military record ended up somehow looking like he'd done less service to this nation than someone who hung out running his papa's sports team into bankruptcy.

Idiots.


Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:32 pm
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dolcevita wrote:
I think we're forgetting his run in the primaries in 2000. He did run, America didn't vote for him.

There are many reasons why "they" meaning "voters in the 2000 primary election" didn't vote for him.

Most of them suck however.

And lets just say, Swift Vets for Truth wasn't the first time someone with a strong military record ended up somehow looking like he'd done less service to this nation than someone who hung out running his papa's sports team into bankruptcy.

Idiots.


Be careful comparing Kerry's embaressingly fake war record with McCains hauntingly real one, it is a dishonor to McCain.

Also if you remember correctly, people did vote for McCain in the primaries ... it was a VERY tight race between him and Bush for a while until Bush's money managed to win out. The republicans and independants loved McCain, it was just that he came onto the scene as a relative unknown and Bush took the white house ... thus forcing him into political oblivion for the next 8 years. He will be back soon.

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Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:53 pm
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Because the Bush campaign had the three things needed to win the Repub nom. 1) More money 2) More willingness to suck up to the religious right 3) More wllingness to fight dirty against primary opponents. "America" didn't choose Bush as the nominee, a relatively small group of party activists choose the Democrat and Republican nominees.


Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:58 pm
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Eagle wrote:

Be careful comparing Kerry's embaressingly fake war record with McCains hauntingly real one, it is a dishonor to McCain.


Damn, it worked on you too? kerry's record was fine. McCain's record was fine. Frankly, I think they both did their service and it should have been a non-issue. I didn't personally vote for anyone based on their military record, but many people care about these things. Barring that, they just fall for the general smear campaigns that bush has taken to new levels. He has, I'm sorry, I've seen too many other Reps and Dems go down not because of a difference in opinions, but because Bush got dirty.

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Also if you remember correctly, people did vote for McCain in the primaries ... it was a VERY tight race between him and Bush for a while until Bush's money managed to win out. The republicans and independants loved McCain, it was just that he came onto the scene as a relative unknown and Bush took the white house ... thus forcing him into political oblivion for the next 8 years. He will be back soon.


The primaries were close for about 5 states, and I think McCain actually took one of the Carolinas (a far different demographic than, say, New Hampshire) and Bush freaked and went dirty. He started the military smearing, he started this crap about McCain fathering some kid out of his marriage. I don't know, he started alot of things that led to the insta-dethronement of a man that seemed pretty popular.

McCain being from Arizona helped (not hurt) his campaign actually, as I still think the Southwest is one of the more malleable places left in this country. Even amongst the dems there was some shuffling for New Mexico, Nevada, etc. There is a batch of about 5 states there that are all the quickest (population wise) growing states in the union today. Whoever gets them is a step ahead of the game. I'm still pissed Kerry didn't take Bill Richardson as his running mate for this very reason. McCain would have hit a jackpot there. Really, he could have won that election at the rate he was going. Cali would have voted for him over Bush, and Cali is the one state thats even bigger than Texas.

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Because the Bush campaign had the three things needed to win the Repub nom. 1) More money 2) More willingness to suck up to the religious right 3) More wllingness to fight dirty against primary opponents. "America" didn't choose Bush as the nominee, a relatively small group of party activists choose the Democrat and Republican nominees.


Yes. 1. McCain hadn't tapped into the Dean-esque money making machine. He really was strapped for cash.
2. *shudders*
3. That's were I disagree. In part. TallDD asked why "The Republicans" didn't "pick" McCain, but the primaries are a vote. Its not that ten guys pick and that's that. Republican Americans didn't vote for him, but its has alot to do with that "willingness to fight dirty" bit. And yes, some Reps probably really threw their weight behind him, but at the time I'm not sure what their logic was. Probably his father? Cheney? Who knows. Suffice it to say, that at this point, they've all been removed from the picture and W really is running the show. Him or Rove.


Last edited by dolcevita on Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:25 pm
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As a footnote to all this, I should explain to non-Americans that being backed by the religious right helps in volunteer work in US politics. It gives you access to thousands of volunteers who are willing to do the menial but necessary jobs of campaigns, door to door canvassing, mass mailings and such. So having them in your corner is in essence another form of monetary advantage which Bush had against both McCain and Kerry.


Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:48 pm
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Dolce you are very wrong if you think Kerrys paltry vietnam status even closely resembles McCain's.


McCain was shot down while bombing a power plant over hanoi? I think ... it was hanoi? Regardless he was shot down and remained a POW for a full 5 years. Durring those 5 years he was tourtured, tourtured to the point that the N.Vietnamese got a confession out of him saying that he was a 'war criminal' for coming to Vietnam.

One man, Craig Willbanks, a bus driver, formed a sort of national movement saying that McCain collaberated with communists when he was a POW. Utter crap, Bush played no role in it.

Bush has repeatedly said nothing but good things about McCains war record, him and McCain are friends of sorts ... McCain backs BUSH ... not Kerry. McCain will use Bush to help him gain money, and to support him, in his run for President in the upcoming years.


Kerry on the other hand ... was a lifelong friend of the Kennady family. He had connections as high as they go, and he went to Vietnam. He used his connections to leave Vietnam early, and then get commendations he did not earn or deserve. Kerry's record can't hold a candle to McCains.

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Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:18 pm
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Well, i guess its a good thing Kerry and McCain never ran against eachother then. I could care less which of the two had a more excruciating war experience, I'm comparing each one individually to Bush, who did nothing, not to eachother. Talk about a guy milking connections to get out of duty.

As I said, I think they're both fine, and don't really go into it much more than that because military record was never one of my voting points.

Seriously, McCain is only backing Bush because he has no choice. I honestly believe its the same thing for Arnold, same thing for alot of Republicans. Bush has the reigns on anyone, and unless you kiss his ass you're going nowhere in this party. These guys have to or it'll break their careers. Perhaps they are biding their time?

And don't fool yourself Willbanks was on Bush's payroll just like the Swift vets were. Clearly he needs to publicly avoid the situation but under the table is something quite different. Bush has never supported McCain, c'mon.


Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:24 pm
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See this is what bothers me about democrats (and personally I consider myself an independant because I do not at all adhere to party lines even though I am registered republican).

Your last post dolce, reads like an angry rant against the republican party. It is as if you don't believe that god forbid ANYONE other than bush use his fathers wealth to escape the draft. Or better yet ... use college. Hmm I wonder how many middle class americans went to college rather than to war. I agree with you I don't want to talk about who had a more excruciating war experience, but because it does not matter. It is not a requirement. It is a choice.

I don't fault Bush for what he did. At that point in his life he was a rich kid very confused in his life who was probably scared shitless about going to war. Millions of others felt the same.

The real travasty about Bush, and what the democrats would have exploited if they had a brain in their entire party, was that Bush has never worked for a damn thing in his life. He was handed everything on a platter by his father, was handed his involvement with the Rangers, and everything following. The man is totally out of touch with middle class america, and infact, has no idea what people like me and many of us on this message board, go through on a day to day basis. He has no clue what it is like to live paycheck to paycheck and he never will. That is what the democrats SHOULD have keyed on, becuase it would have disconnected him from his supporters. All they did is make him seem like a confused kid who was afraid to go to war and lucky enough to have the pull to get out of it. Hmmm only 99% of the people drafted would have done the exact same thing. Good job isolating him from that 1%, half of which you probably lost with the swift boat campaign.

Regardless, your rant on leadership ... newsflash ... it is how the political system works. You don't think Gore did the same damn thing with Clinton? You don't think the Kennadys milk their family name? You don't think Mrs Clinton milks hers?! McCain is a free man, he can say whatever he wants. Often he does. He wants to be the next president, Guileanni does as well ... not suprising they are both staunch supporters of bush, a man who has the power to get them there.

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Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:42 pm
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Eagle wrote:
Kerry on the other hand ... was a lifelong friend of the Kennady family. He had connections as high as they go, and he went to Vietnam. He used his connections to leave Vietnam early, and then get commendations he did not earn or deserve. Kerry's record can't hold a candle to McCains.


TallDD, THIS kind of bullshit is why real soldiers like McCain and Kerry lose to pathetic dumbasses like Bush.

BOTH McCain and Kerry served in Vietnam. Kerry served a tour of duty, which is one more than Bush did, where he earned a Silver Medal and was sent home after his 3rd purple heart, which was the policy at the time.

McCain's record is more impressive, sure, but that does not diminish Kerry in any way. McCain refused every opportunity to go home ahead of his fellow soldiers in the prison camp. He stuck it out for 5 years and to this day can't lift his arms over his head because they hung him up by his thumbs.

And, Eagle, if you think Kerry's record is bad because he used connections to go home early, then what kind of stinking pathetic coward does that make Bush? He used his connections to go ahead of a long waiting list into the Texas Air National Guard, where he may or may have even finished.


Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:45 pm
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O please ...

Kerry's campaign openly admitted under scrutiny that his first purple heart "might" have been from a self inflicted wound.

Not to mention his commanding officer refused to sign off on his 3rd purple heart, but he got it anyway because a superior signed off on it (hmm wonder if that had anything to do with his political pull so he could go home early)

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Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:51 pm
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Beeblebrox wrote:

TallDD, THIS kind of bullshit is why real soldiers like McCain and Kerry lose to pathetic dumbasses like Bush.



Like I said ... service record should play little to no part in electing a president. Kerry didn't want to be there, neither did Bush. That in the end, is the simple truth.

I think it is apparent that Kerry lost for reasons OTHER than his service record.

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dolcevita wrote:
Well, i guess its a good thing Kerry and McCain never ran against eachother then.


I don't think the military record would have been as much of an issue in that case. The Bush campaign HAD to attack and slime Kerry's record because Bush himself didn't have one and knew that would hurt him. They effectively removed that issue, even making it a liability for Kerry. They did the same thing with McCain in the primaries.


Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:53 pm
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Beeblebrox wrote:
And, Eagle, if you think Kerry's record is bad because he used connections to go home early, then what kind of stinking pathetic coward does that make Bush? He used his connections to go ahead of a long waiting list into the Texas Air National Guard, where he may or may have even finished.


As I already said, I think that 99% of the people fighting in vietnam would have done the exact same thing if given the oppurtunity.

How many kids avoided Vietnam via college? Are they all stinking pathetic cowards as well? Or is it just because Bush has money that he is a coward for not fighting?

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Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:56 pm
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Eagle wrote:
Kerry's campaign openly admitted under scrutiny that his first purple heart "might" have been from a self inflicted wound.


That's not true at all. In fact, the only source of the self-inflicted wound rumor I'm aware of is Michelle Malkin, a scumbag right-wing shill that makes Rush Limbaugh look like Stewart Smiley.

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Like I said ... service record should play little to no part in electing a president. Kerry didn't want to be there, neither did Bush. That in the end, is the simple truth.


As if you give a shit about the truth. Kerry VOLUNTEERED for military service in the Navy. He VOLUNTEERED for combat duty in Vietnam while aboard the USS Gridley, where he served for 4 1/2 months and earned medals and purple hearts.

Bush used his connections to get out of Vietnam entirely. If you think Kerry's record is paltry comparet to McCain's, then BUSH is a fucking cowardly pathetic piece of yellow trash.

And yet you defend Bush's record and put down Kerry's.


Last edited by Beeblebrox on Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:00 pm
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Eagle wrote:
How many kids avoided Vietnam via college? Are they all stinking pathetic cowards as well? Or is it just because Bush has money that he is a coward for not fighting?


I'm going by the standard by which you're denegrating Kerry's record, calling it "paltry."

I personally DON'T think that people who dodged the draft are cowards necessarily, particularly those that objected on moral grounds (although Bush didn't object to the war, he just objected to himself actually serving in it).

But why would you denegrate Kerry for supposedly using connections to get out of Vietnam but defend Bush for dodging Vietnam altogether?


Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:04 pm
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Easy, because Kerry went to war with purely political motives ... he went ... served in a safe unit ... got his medals ... and came home early.

And if you think any more than 1% of kids going to college to escape the war were going because it was against their morals to kill, your kidding yourself. People were scared to death of going to war, and did all they could to avoid it. Bush did nothing wrong in doing so. I still maintain 99% of the population does the same thing in his shoes, why in heck wouldn't you?

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Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:22 pm
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Essentially what Swift Boats was about:

T
Quote:
wo of John Kerry's Purple Hearts were for self-inflicted wounds, charges a new book by two of the presidential candidate's Vietnam comrades.


In "Unfit for Command," scheduled for release Aug. 15, John O'Neill, who took over Kerry's swift-boat command, and his co-author Jerome Corsi say two of Kerry's three Purple Heart decorations resulted from self-inflicted wounds, not suffered under enemy fire, according to the DrudgeReport.

All three of Kerry's Purple Hearts were for minor injuries, not requiring a single hour of hospitalization, as O'Neill has previously explained.

The book reportedly relates how Kerry turned the tragic death of a father and small child in a Vietnamese fishing boat into an act of "heroism" by filing a false report on the incident.




The Medic Who Treated Him:


Quote:
The Navy medic who treated Sen. John Kerry after he sustained his first battlefield wound in Vietnam said Tuesday that he thought that the injury had been inadvertently self-inflicted - raising new questions about why Kerry sought a Purple Heart after the incident.

Contacted by National Review Online, Dr. Louis Letson recalled that Kerry insisted during treatment that he was injured by enemy fire while his swift boat was patrolling the Mekong Delta on Dec. 2, 1968.

However, "some of his crew confided that they did not receive any fire from shore," the Navy doc told NRO.

Instead, his crewmen claimed that Kerry "had fired a mortar round at close range to some rocks on shore."

One crewman told Letson that he thought Kerry's injury "was caused by a fragment ricocheting from that mortar round when it struck the rocks."

Concluded Letson, "That seemed to fit the injury which I treated."

He described the top Democrat's wound as "a small piece of metal sticking very superficially in the skin of Kerry's arm.

"The metal fragment measured about 1 cm. in length and was about 2 or 3 mm in diameter. It certainly did not look like a round from a rifle."

Letson recalled that he "simply removed the piece of metal by lifting it out of the skin with forceps.

"I doubt that it penetrated more than 3 or 4 mm. It did not require probing to find it, did not require any anesthesia to remove it, and did not require any sutures to close the wound.

"The wound was covered with a bandaid," Dr. Letson said.




And the best .... an Editors Commentary on it which reflects MY PERSONAL opinion to a T

Quote:
John Kerry has presented his Vietnam record as his major qualification to be president of the United States. It is, therefore, the duty of the American public to scrutinize that record carefully. And it is the duty of candidate John Kerry to facilitate that scrutiny. If all the senator's claims about his four months in Vietnam are factual, it would be to his great advantage to facilitate such scrutiny.
Before we get to his record in Vietnam, however, we should examine the widespread misconception about how he got to Vietnam. The oft-repeated claim that Mr. Kerry volunteered to go to Vietnam misleads: He apparently volunteered only after the draft deferment he had applied for was turned down — thus allowing him to choose service in the Navy to avoid being drafted into the Army.
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I served as a combat surgeon in DaNang, (U.S. Naval Support Hospital) from Dec. 10, 1967, through Dec. 11, 1968. While there, I evaluated and treated hundreds of severely wounded combatants.
During my year in DaNang, a few combatants urged me to verify small abrasions as "wounds" so they could get a Purple Heart. Each freely admitted trying to acquire Purple Hearts as rapidly as possible to take advantage of the policy allowing those with three Purple Hearts to apply to leave Vietnam early. I refused them. But some went shopping for another opinion. Unfortunately, we had some antiwar physicians in Vietnam who were happy to become accomplices in these frauds. Most with valid Purple Hearts didn't need to apply to leave Vietnam: The seriousness of their wounds demanded it.
Lt. John Kerry's collecting three Purple Hearts within 100 days — all for wounds too minor to require hospitalization — recalls the distasteful memories of having to deal with those few miscreants in DaNang. More disturbing is the revelation that crewmen on Mr. Kerry's boat denied they had received any gunfire from shore at the time when Lt. Kerry claimed such gunfire had caused his wound. The doctor who disapproved Lt. Kerry's application for his first Purple Heart for that wound agreed that the tiny metal splinter sticking in the skin of his arm was inconsistent with enemy gunfire from shore. His crewmates claimed that Lt. Kerry, himself, had fired a grenade launcher from the boat striking a rock on the nearby shore — and his wound was from a metal splinter from the grenade that ricocheted back, striking him in the arm.
Is there any way we can determine who was telling the truth about this first Purple Heart? Yes, there is. The type of wound can reveal much about the weapon that caused it. The tiny sliver of metal and its very superficial penetration is typical of fragments from explosive devices — like grenades. It would not have resulted from the most likely gunfire from shore — small arms rifle fire. The AK 47 rifle, used by the enemy, fires a 30-caliber bullet, which is 50 times or more as heavy as the sliver of metal sticking in Lt. Kerry's skin. Such a bullet would have passed through any part of his body it struck, and certainly no part of it would have remained sticking in his skin.
In the absence of the medical records that Mr. Kerry apparently declines to make public, the only details we have about his second and third Purple Hearts are that he also based them on wounds too minor to require hospitalization. My reason for refusing to verify insignificant wounds as the basis for a Purple Heart was the regulation covering Purple Heart awards. In Part B, Paragraph 2, of the Army Purple Heart Regulation (600-8-22 of 25 February 1995), we find "the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer."
Dr. Louis Letson was entirely correct in turning down Lt. Kerry's first Purple Heart — even if the wound had been the result of enemy action. Can there be any doubt that the tiny metal sliver could have been removed easily, and safely, by a Navy corpsman? It certainly did not "require" treatment by a medical officer (an MD).
Purple Hearts are not supposed to be awarded for self-inflicted wounds, nor for wounds too minor to require treatment by a physician. So where and how did Lt. Kerry eventually obtain a Purple Heart for his first wound? Nobody seems to know. Only his medical records will tell — and the American public needs that information to evaluate candidate Kerry's qualifications and candor.
The highly unlikely occurrence of being wounded three times within 100 days, in the very beginning of a tour of duty, and all three wounds being so minor that none required hospitalization, would seem sufficient cause for further investigation.Addingthe inconsistencies surrounding Lt. Kerry's first Purple Heart should make mandatory a thorough scrutiny of his medical records by someone highly qualified to interpret military medical records, and familiar with the regulations on the qualifications for the Purple Heart Medal, to determine if the wounds for which Lt. Kerry was awarded the Purple Heart Medal were serious enough to "require" treatment by a medical officer, as called for by the Purple Heart regulation.
Mr. Kerry has made his Vietnam War record the centerpiece of his campaign. This demands a thorough objective evaluation of his medical records to determine if the three Purple Hearts that allowed him to leave Vietnam after only four months of duty were justified. This evaluation needs to be done before the election.

Dr. Martin L. Fackler served as a combat surgeon in Vietman in 1968. A fellow of both the American College of Surgeons and the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, he also is an author, expert witness and lecturer on wound ballistics and surgery, and former director of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory at Presidio.

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Last edited by Eagle on Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:33 pm
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Eagle, no matter how shady you paint Kerry, it won't compare to the level of shadiness employed by Bush.


Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:37 pm
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Eagle wrote:
Easy, because Kerry went to war with purely political motives ...


And you have proof of that, of course. I know how deeply concerned you are with the truth.

Quote:
he went ... served in a safe unit ... got his medals ... and came home early.


You mean that "safe unit" where he got shot at, saved his buddy and earned a Silver Medal, and wounded three times?

I wonder how does that compare to Bush's unit that flew those dangerous missions over El Paso, TX.

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Bush did nothing wrong in doing so. I still maintain 99% of the population does the same thing in his shoes, why in heck wouldn't you?


So Kerry uses political connections to get out of Vietnam early. "Paltry."

Bush uses political connections to get out of Vietnam altogether. "Nothing wrong."

Uh huh. The truth. Yeah right.


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