http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050222/D88DLA5G0.html

ALEXANDRIA, Va. (AP) - A former Virginia high school valedictorian who had been detained in Saudi Arabia as a suspected terrorist was charged Tuesday with conspiring to assassinate President Bush and with supporting the al-Qaida terrorist network.

Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, 23, a U.S. citizen, made an initial appearance Tuesday in U.S. District Court but did not enter a plea. He claimed that he was tortured while detained in Saudi Arabia since June of 2003 and offered through his lawyer to show the judge his scars.

The federal indictment said that in 2002 and 2003 Abu Ali and an unidentified co-conspirator discussed plans for Abu Ali to assassinate Bush. They discussed two scenarios, the indictment said, one in which Abu Ali "would get close enough to the president to shoot him on the street" and, alternatively, "an operation in which Abu Ali would detonate a car bomb."

According to the indictment, Abu Ali obtained a religious blessing from another unidentified co-conspirator to assassinate the president.

More than 100 supporters of Abu Ali crowded the courtroom and laughed when the charge was read aloud alleging that he conspired to assassinate Bush.

When Abu Ali asked to speak, U.S. Magistrate Liam O'Grady suggested he consult with his attorney, Ashraf Nubani.

"He was tortured," Nubani told the court. "He has the evidence on his back. He was whipped. He was handcuffed for days at a time."

When Nubani offered to show the judge his back, O'Grady said that Abu Ali might be able to enter that as evidence on Thursday at a detention hearing.

"I can assure you you will not suffer any torture or humiliation while in the (U.S.) marshals' custody," O'Grady said.

Abu Ali is charged with six counts and would face a maximum of 80 years in prison if convicted.


I have little doubt that he could be tortured in Saudi Arabia. Does it warrant setting him free? What do you think?

Also, particularly disturbing is the fact that a bunch of people laughed when the charge was read out loud. A plot to kill the president is a very serious matter.

No I don't think he should be set free but I do think the US should stop using third world countries as contracted out interrogators which is basically our legal but quiet and not publicized policy. And yes any plot to kill the president is serious, although I don't know enough in this situation -- was he just bullshitting and blowing off steam with buddies or was it a real plan? If it was real, as I guess it was, then yes it's very serious and it was stupid of them to laugh.

I sort of agree with Archie here.

I cannot vouch for Saudi Arabia or even comment on the country itself but if what i've read about the place is any indication, then stuff that happens in pakistan could very well happen in the Saudi

I'll tell you a true story about someone i actually know and met many times. Shes a friend of one of my closest group of friends.

Her dad was charged a few years ago of murder. Today, there is little doubt in people's mind (my friends and even her) that he prolly did do it). He gave a kid a syanide pill. Thing is, the conclusion is hes a bit fucked up in the head .. no reason whatsoever .. no other motive.

Her dad was also charged with the murder of a few more unresolved cases. This is the problem. The way things run there, there is little doubt in my mind that the dad was not responsible for all the killings yet they were pinned on him to resolve and close a few cases the police did not wish to do an investigation on (or did, found nothing but can't get the families to shut up). Such occurrances are common. God knows what torture the dude went through but he was made to sign this letter certifying he did all that.

The thing is, none of us know if he did or not. These torture stories i've heard numerous times, used only to get someone to finally sign a document or say that they did something even if it wasn't true.

Her father was hanged 2 years ago.

He didnt actually do anything, so i think he shold be set free.

Conspiracy to kill president is a very serious crime; taking it lightly is not an option in the U.S.

Archie, I agree with you that we should stop using foreing countries as our "partners" in torturing civilians. The important question is: whether his torturing was sanctioned by the U.S., or at the very least whether the U.S. knew about it. If the answer to both questions is no, then I think the case should proceed. If the answer to either is yes, then I think he should be released. It does not behoove the U.S. to ignore the due process rights, especially for its own citizens.

Bingo, though Saudi Arabia is pretty far from a third-world country. Replace "third-world countries" with "countries with poor human rights records" and you're on track. The Uzbek boiling-in-a-vat interrogation technique, anyone?

BTW, baba, that story is sort of like what used to happen in USSR back prior to 1950's. Except people weren't even given the courtesy of their relatives knowing that they were indeed dead. People were forced to sign all sorts of documents just to avoid the torture.

My great grandfather was sent to the Gulag in 1937 and we don't even know what crime he "committed" or when he died. All we have is a letter from the 1950's saying that his conviction was overturned.

He didnt actually commit a crime, so he should be set free. They should have waited to see if he did try and kill Bush before jumping him and arresting him etc.

I'd like to see you try that with a cop one time.

"But officer, I didn't mean to steal anything! I was just showing off my new AK to this pretty young teller here".

Yea ... Pakistan has a lot of curruption but unless you're from a really poor family or not from the big cities, you can usually find out whats going on. Even if people are being anal, the social circle is good enough that you'll know one person who knows another who knows another who will eventually know someone very important and information will be retreived no matter what. But usually, you can just get a lawyer and atleast have access to whats going on. Again in the bigger cities, taking things to trial aren't as hard either (unless you're up against some very poweful currupt family).

If theres enough damaging evidence, i dont see a problem with apprehending someone in time .... again ... the key word here is damaging evidence.

Krem has commented on Arafat getting killed .. but that doesn't warrant getting him arrested .. same thing here. how closesly was he involved, would he have carried it trhough, how deep did the conspiracy run.

The thing about threatening the life of the president (and other high-ranking officials) is that the Secret Service absolutely HAS to check up on any lead. So even if you (well, not you since you're in Canada, but you catch my drift) make a stupid comment on the Internet among the lines of "I wish president Bush was dead" and somebody reports it to the Secret Service, they WILL follow through on it and have a talk with you. Most of the time it won't result in anything, but seeing as this went all the way to the trial, I'd guess there was enough evidence.

Oh yea .. i know about that. I'm just saying that considering this is being handled by an external party to begin with, I do not know how much of what hes been made to admit to and not is just fabricated.

It all depends on how far along the conspiracy was. If all they ever did was talk about how they would like to do it but no one actually even attempted anything, it's probably not a crime. We don't know yet though because we haven't seen the evidence.

Mike, what's your opinion on the torture issue, though? Suppose he is guilty; should he still be released if he was tortured?

No, but the people who tortured him should be arrested. Just like in America.

America's laws are more strict than in UK, which is good sometimes. But not in this case...some laws can get too trivial.

I mean, you are not allowed to jay-walk in the States why the fuck not!!!!!

Yes, people are thrown in jail for jay-walking here.

I've been in jail about 10 times now. I never learn.

Sheesh, you've got it lucky, stop complaining. I'm in jail every other day all for not coming to a full stop at a stop sign.

Stop the mocking.....just a correct me if im wrong, youre not allowed to jay-walk, right?

it's funny. in the city where i live a lady was hit by a car when she was crossing the street. they did nothing to the driver and let him go. and the lady,who was seriously injured, was cited for jaywalking. gotta love american laws sometimes

Yes, it's a traffic law. You're not allowed to jay-walk pretty much anywhere else in the world where there are traffic laws. You usually won't get cited, but it's fineable offense.

you can be fined for jaywalking but even on a red light, its always the pedestrians right of way. you'll still get a sign and if the driver can prove that there was no way he could have stopped the collision (considering his light is green), he can get away with it. But if its green and an old lady is walking and you saw it from a mile away and dont stop, you're screwed. Penalty ofcourse is less than if the light was actually red.

the funny thing about it is that we had just gotten a ton of snow and the city didn't plow the road so she really didn't know where the crosswalk was and they still fined her. they could have easily just let it slide due to the circumstances but they didn't. it was the city's fault for not plowing at all and she still gets a ticket.