What's BKB doing in here?

I say all this as a read to both of you.

*takes gloves off*

Here I go.

Lecter, you're behavior on the goldie issue disappoints me, there I said it. While I respect your need to defend Kelly, you need separate when its what you should be doing (RT incident) and when its not really your place (her having a debate with people). Itis hard to remvoe ourselves from situations and see the bigger picture, I should know I was there and you were the one to remind me that I was being stupid.


Mav, when you get into to debates you do things I think you need to think about:
1. You get personal.
The snot nosed teengaer comments, try or not, have no place, and those are some of the nicer things you've said. While I don't deny that Fett was an ass, there were two people there, and it takes two to tango. You have to ask yourself why you find yourslef in very personal, mud slining debates alot. I think sometimes you might want to reflect a bit before you hit submit. You can school a person with the above comments, you're better then that.

2. You take comments to personally.
For someone who preaches it is only a message board, you get very heated in debates. The American Idol thread in the TV forum is a good example, yes you later backed off, but the initial very anatagonistic reacion can get you into trouble. Our personal backgrounds can make us veyr senstivie to certain insults, forexample once at the gym a women made a comen about bastard children..sa the daughter of tow people who were Catholic and not married I tok offense. Did I yell at this womena nd call her a mean, catty, bitch...since that is what I think she is, no. You have to pick your battles, and if you do number 1 alot, you going to get alot of low blows slung back at you. Again, you're better then this.

If I didn't like you both I wouldn't bother saying this. The people I hate this board, i coudl give two shits if they change their behavior, but if you two want to be leaders in this forum you have to take a step back and evaluate how you behave in heated debates.

Cool thread. A thread on full fire.
Much anger! Someone will go to the dark side sooner or later.

C'mon make love, not war!

...and who's the kid at BKB111's shoulder? :wink:

Indeed some fine points made, Ripper, but I think everyone, including me, needs to cool it on the forums. It use to be gentle poking, but it's getting progressively uglier.



You ARE the BKB.

Dude, I'm one person. I can't be expected to talk one on one with 10 people at a time...



But you decided to anyway. I always enjoy when somebody starts off like that, and then acts like they didn't really hate getting involved.



You don't like most of the people at these forums, then. More than half of the people here are overly enthusiastic about something. Hell, we are all overly enthusiastic about movies period.



I like James Bond, Marvel, Star Wars, LOTR, and Harry Potter, to some extent. Matrix is OK, but that's about it.



See, you claim you won't get into an argument, but threw out an argumentitive statement anyway. Have you ever heard it takes two to tango? Funny how you single me out, and have never once said anything to the others.



Then how can you discredit opinions as you did above by calling people over entusiastic fanboys. You can't have that both ways. Either you accept everybody as an equal, or you don't. You obviously don't.



Artur, you are a teen. In all the time that we have talked, have I ever shot down your opinion based on that, or told you you were a disrespectful young turk who thought he knew something about the world? No, and you know why? Because you have always said and done things that have earned respect. You've always presented yourself as a gentleman. You have always presented youself as mature. You've disagreed with me several times, but you never started foaming at the mouth because of it.



Artur, when you get older, you are going to understand something. Something I didn't understand when I was your age. There is more truth to the old adage of "there is no substitution for age and experience" than you could possibly realize at this point in your life. My comments about age was not really directed at opinion, but attitude.

Yeah... well... that's just, like, your opinion, man

Guys, this thread need to get back on track.

Although, it was interesting to read these clashes...

Wow, there's actually a thread on these forums without needless "Your mom does this and that" type comments? And some very well-written posts and arguments that aren't being spewed out of the fanboy's mouth, like every other thread in existance? Well, I guess I must read it now....it only happenes once every blue moon.

And wow. I got lost around the Carebears ordeal...I wonder what would happen if the Hulk and a Carebear had a lovechild...

A few points I wanted to get off my chest:

The original Star Wars trilogy rocked. I won't discredit someone for disliking them (nor for liking the prequels, which I generally despise) but I will expect them to explain their opinion, and I will take the time and the couresy to listen to them and try and understand their opinion.

Espisode 1 was painful. I felt like someone had just dropped a brick on my head. Number 2 was a huge step up....much like the Harry Potter series thus far: The first one was awful, but the second one redeemed it and was above average. All I want from the movie is entertainment. I'm seeing it because of the originals (and also, Attack of the Clones great set-up for the Clone Wars) And, if it does happen to be as good as the original trilogy, so be it. If it doesn't, than Lucas tried and didn't succeed. At least the backstory to the originals is defined, making them more enjoyable.

The faults of the prequels do not lie in the actors. People cite bad acting as a reason for dislike against the prequels, and I have said this before that it isn't as much bad acting as it is bad direction and screenwriting. Natalie, Hayden, and Ewan are all more capable actors than how they come off in Episodes 1 and 2, and their other work has proven that.

Being dragged to a movie by your friends is nothing new. Not by a long shot. It's not peer pressure. It's not the fear of being lonely. torrino said that the Star Wars movies were no better than any other average Sci-Fi flick. He didn't hate the movies themselves, but what people make of them. Does that mean he cannot go see a movie of a series he finds to be too hyped? I'm going to see Batman Begins. I think it is over hyped. I thought the first Batman film was good, but not amazing, and the following Batman film grew increasingly worse. I will still see Batman Begins if my friends to see it, because at the end of the day, preconceived notions of a movie can be totally blown away.

I think people are a bit too critical of what we see at the theater. Everyone. If I met Keanu Reeves and had a chance to talk to him, I wouldn't spend it lecturing him about how he's such a bad actor and he shouldn't be in the business. I would ask him how he got to be the recognized actor he is today. Because whether some people would like to admit it or not, people in Hollywood aren't chosen at random. Whether by picking an unkown kid just out of acting school, picking someone off of a Shakespearean stage, or choosing the greedy way and choosing someone with a name already established, like Britney Spears or Eminem, each person has some history of work that led them to their current position, and I wouldn't be one to question them with such hostility because of it. Not just actors, but everyone.

I'm part of my school's theater program as an actor and director (one of the five best High School theater programs in the country as of last year). I have been telling stories since the age of 6, and writing since the age of 10. I have read dozens of books and other references about screenwriting and directing. Does this give my opinion ANY more value than anybody elses I know. Of course not. People may take it with more weight, but that doesn't make my opinion any more right than Bob's. Nor is Bob's opinion any more right than Phil's. Whether Phil has seen 1000 movies and Bob only 2, it doesn't matter. Everyone has the right to their own opinion without the fear of being judged.

The whole argument that rose about age vs attitude is bull, personally. Mav said something along the lines of "I know what t's like. I've been there [as a 16 year old]." And to that, all I can think to say is that you don't. You know what it's like to be Mav at 16 years old. You don't know what it's like to be Zing at 16 years old, or torrino at 16 years old, or Lector at 16 years old. You grew up in a different society. You grew up in a different household. You don't know what torrino may have lived through over the past 16 years. Or Lecotr. Or anyone else. He could have lived on the street for the past 15 years, living off of scraps found in dumpsters and money given to him by random strangers. And since he makes one comment, that gives you the right to call him an inexperienced snobby teenager? That's bull, personally.

I love Ripper. I agree completely with everything she has said in this thread. That quote she made about leading and following is my new "wow" quote.

I had some more points, but I lost them already in the replies I have made.

Sorry. The original star wars trilogy as great as it was, had millions of faults, the same faults we wish to excuse today for the original yet blast the Prequels for.

Like what, baBA?

I try, you see alot of good debate in the polictical threads, but not so much in the movie threads.



I'm sig worthy, go me \:D/

As soon as I answer this, pay close attention to how somebody will make a baiting comment after it dies down, and then blame me for responding. Happens all the time.




Cynthia, I have publicly expressed a desire to no longer get into arguments. As soon as I did that, my appearance, mother, and dead brother were commented on. Another poster decided to call me a wimp. Another decided to drag it all back up after it died down. When things like that happen, it becomes very clear that people don't want me to be nice, but also want to blame me for firing back. I tried to bow out of this conversation, and look at Jon Lyrik's comment about it. Do you need further proof? I tried to end something gracefully yesterday, and bABA decided to try to bait me. I will not accept blame for that kind of bullshit. They need called out on it, because it's the equal of blowing smoke in the face of somebody who's trying to quit smoking because of health reasons. I don't know how much simpler I can say that I don't want to come here to argue. I even told one person a few days ago of my desire to just be behind the scenes instead of at the forums, because I didn't find the forums fun.

Why do I find myself in these situations? Because a lot of times, I'm not on the popular side. Having issues with LOTR caused much animosity with me and others. People like to try to knock down somebody who is confident. I'm not a perfect person who doesn't ever make mistakes. Mine are just magified more than most. Take your pick.



The American idol thread, is a case in which I apologized, something I never see anybody else do when they are wrong. Just look at the comments from people who NEVER admit when they are wrong, trying to project themselves on me. Arguing with me is like arguing with a brick wall? He never admits when he's wrong? I wonder if dolce would agree with that? Truth is, I'm the only one who can prove I've admitted being wrong before, and on more than one occassion, so I have no respect for that argument. It's weak , and proves a lack of confidence in their own words and opinions.

I'll make you a deal, Cynthia. I'll make this deal with everybody. You'll never hear another word from me that is the slightest bit insulting, UNLESS somebody insults me first, AND, all of the morality in this thread ignores it. If enough time goes by that nobody decides to step in when I'm insulted, then that's telling me that they really want me to do it. I truely have absolutely no problems being the nicest guy in the world, but I also have no desire to sit back and watch myself being insulting, while all of the sudden, none of the morals shown in this thread matter when it's an insult toward me.

I've seen plenty of cases on these boards of convenient morality. There was grandstanding over BKB lying about a quote , for instance, but when an anti Star wars fan did the same thing, not only was it ignored, but excuses were made for him, but none of them would admit they were wrong. I still remember all of those people. If people really want to show that this isn't just another case of moral grandstanding , then they can get off the soapbox and help a little. My feelings are that that won't happen. I'm not asking anybody to do anything that I haven't done, as I have stood up for others on more than one occassion so they didn't have to. That same respect has never been given to me by anybody but MovieDude. If you truely want a unity or a brotherhood, that's the only way it works. Iit doesn't just work when we are personaly affected, but when the morals are.

edit: I should also mention that Libs has stuck up for me in the past. I'm very thankful to both she and MovieDude, and I go out of my way to treat them both as my favorites.

bad acting, bad dialogue, bad editing .. just stuff you notice from time to time. even cheesiness (the monster in the asteroid comes to mind). Meh ... all things here and there, nothing specific. even inconsistencies (Empire strikes back, the escape from the planet scene .. watch it again, i remmeber there being a huuuuge inconsistency there ..

not nitpicking .. but basically, it was littered .. meh .. i still love it.

Yes and no.

The OT is far from perfect, but the prequels have all the same faults, new faults, and well none of the charm., thrill, interest, etc

Someone made a thread asking about maserpeice films, and I was had pressed to think of mre then one or two films that I thought were perfect.

The OT has more imput from other creative people, having other writers and directors makes a difference. Han's reposne of "I know" to Leia's "I love you" was was written as "I love you" by Llucas, the director didn;t like it and changed it. The changing of that one line adds alot to Han's character. In the first film you can see Uncle Owen;s charred body when Luke goes back to the farm, compare that to Boba fett holding up the head of hsi father, the first scene scared me as as child, the second ne, my nephew looke at it, look, ok. That subtle lack of emotion and character arc matters alot. Lucas has soem genius inhm, I jsut think he works best when he takes input from other people (Indiana Jones, ESB).

Lucas has had just as many co-writers for the prequels as the OT. Jonathan Hales collaborated on the Episode II script, and it's been reported Tom Stoppard did a lot of work on Revenge of the Sith. That's in line with the originals, where Lucas co-write Empire and Jedi with Lawrence Kasdan.

It's not just about having influences around, it's about having the right influences. Lawrence Kasdan was obviously the right influence for the originals. Tom Stoppard and Jonathan Hales are obviously not as good as Lawrence Kasdan.

The prequels indeed have their own faults too. I'm not denying that. But I find it rather hypocritical that problems in prequels that even existed in the original are blasted while in the original, are defended to the death. Look around Ripper, from all the conversations around ... Star Wars is less than perfect, something you and I agree too. How many Star Wars Original fans will let us live with that?

This is first time i following the debate from beginning to end, so it is the first time I felt I had the right to comment.=,s o while I may have felt htis way before I held my tongue for lack of knoweldge of all the details.



First I ask, did commenting back to them help at all?

Our first reaction when offended is to lash out, but this causes us to lash out while emotional and angry, and we tend to make situations worse. We say things we wish we had not, we stump to a level we might not have otherwise.

Whenever we want to quit something the temptation to do the opposite great. I went on an eat heathy kick this summer, and every week last semester my friend ate yummy greasy frnech fries in frnt of me...every day i wanted to kill her, but now peopel can eat jsut about anything in front of me and I don't care. So while its rude to blow smoke in the face of someone who is quitting smoking,t hen will encounter the smell of smoke and they ahve to learn to deal with that.

You may not want to argue, but part of what brings us to a forum is debate, and these debates get heated and personal, and when they do all I am asking is that you ask yourself if its worth it to go down the road, to defend your honor agaisnt a poster who means nothing to you?

Do you want to lose the respect you've gained from the people here you do like, based on some stupid comments?

I am just suggesting that sometimes when they mnake these comments about your family, you remind yourself, that your family is the same as the were before these comments and these don't know them...whatever they say is meaningless. if they don't want to debate the issue and instead want to discuss your looks, then why talk to them at all?




You are not the only one who dislikes LOTR, but you are the one who I notice in more ugly personal debates with various posters. I make my comments only because, I who avoid the personal attacks, see that you are involved in them when they do enter my radaR. And while I am not calling those who engage in this with you saints, OR obsolving them of responsibility, if we repeatedly find ourselves in a situation, we have to accept that maybe we are helping ourselves get theRE.

I'll give you an example if a time when i think you crossed the line, you and loyal were fighting and you made that thread on the water cooler asking a mod to talk to him...it shoudl have been a pm. You had to know that thread was going to piss off loyal, and while his comments may or may not have been out of line, you added gasoline to the fire, and thus you made yourself look bad.

I an not talking to loyal, so I am not addressign hwo i feel about hsi actions, that is something I will leave for my discussion with him. Right now I jsut want to focus on how I felt about what I saw you doing.

I did not see all of loyal's comments or all of yours, but I did read that whole thread, and threads like that are only around to allow other posters to comment on an arguement that does not concern them. I never should have had the ability to read it. your complaints may have been valid, but it was a private converastion not a public one. The fact that thread wa not locked and deleted is one example of the bad mod job that bothers me alot around here.



We have all been wrong, my point in bring up that thread was just to demonstrate that while you may have had some valid points, you presentation of them was rather abrasive. Sometimes you come out swinging, when no one is trying to fight you.

Some apologies happen behind the scenes, some never happen..sometimes the eprson back off is enough for one to realize the understand they are wrong.



I am not saying don't sling mud, I am saying if you sling mud accept the mud that comes back. If you choose nto tsling mud, and you do not like the mud that comes your way, complain privately. It is the mod's job to handle these issues privately, calmly and discreetly. Flame wars involve low blows, the kind that are illegally in fights, this is why i bow out of them. I don't want to give or receive them.

I have isue with how the mods run this place, big issues, but puclically calling out posters doesn't help. There is alot of selective modding that goes on around here. The simple fact is, this place has just as many mod problems as BOM. There I said, its the absolulte truth.




This place is the defintion of convient morality, it is in part why i get frustrated and wonder why I came back. This place has along way to go.

Most people won't admit when they are wrong, but that is the way life is. It is good that you admit that you wrong, sinking to their level because they do not is not the answer. It sucks to be the guy willing to be caught with his pants down, but if no one was ever willing to do that we'd still eb partof England nad have slaves.

Be the leader this time, the followers may take months to arrive.

Most trilogies have rabid fans who refuse to see the problems inherentin the films, this is why i likepoeple like TonyMontana, who lvoes the matrix but admits its faults...this is why even though I love OT, I admit its problems, and realize not everyone agrees with me.

Success breeds both a radbid love at all costs you can do wrong and a rabid hate you can do nothing right. Most intelligent realize that the reality lies in the center of this.

Alot of the Star Wars love from the odelr generation is about being there when it was all happening, listent ot osmeone talk about what it was like when ESB first premiered. In some ways, no movie will ever create that climate again, so their revereance and adorationf or the film is in part nostaliga..jsut the way people idiolize their youth and past. Like when adults talk aout how great the 50's were b/c of a famiyl values, oh yes, legalized racism, women with no rights and back alley abortions, were great. It is all about perspective. For the young men in that 12-30 age group when Star Wars came out it was something really special and that may never change for them.

Its a totally different time though, how many of us would really say "George that idea is shit." I am not so sure that the same level of collaboration is possible as you saw on the first few movies. It is sort of like consultign with God about how he designed the planet, "So god this who race thing is a problem, can we work on that."

I sometimes woner how much these new collaborators, help or hurt the project. So far I am not impressed, bring back Kasdan.

I hve no problem with sticking up for you, but I will also be the first one to ask you stop and reflect. That what friends do, they defend and remind you when you may need to cool it. I think you need to work on your ability to back away from stuff around here.

Sorry Mav. In another thread, I already told you that you can interpret things the way you wish to. My desires were not to bait, i even explained myself and if you do not wish to believe my comments, then theres little else i can do.

The last thing i want is to carry on an argument here by baiting more people when as it is, I have to deal with about 18 PMs a day rfom people in other arguments or something as stupid as "wanting to become a mod" .. last thing i want is to purposely be a part of more arguments.

I need your help in the Batman thread, Baba. Too many haters and baiters in that thread and I need your help in arguing with them and personally attacking them. See you there in 2 mins. I cannot flame them alone myself

link?

: )

It didn't make any difference, as when I tried not to, comments were made as well. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.



No, I don't. It's not worth it, but I come here to talk movies. Let some of these oversensitive guys see what it's like to be a Hulk fan or a Star Wars fan. I think they may see how petty they are for getting so upset over my opinion on Constantine. I also know that there are some very stupid people online. Look at all of the people who believed I was a LOTR hater because somebody said I was. Look at the personal attacks I received because of it. Long before I ever gave them a reason. Look at the people who tried to say BKB and I were the same person, just because somebody said we were. Look at the people who didn't realize the disagreements we have had. I wonder if any of those people have noticed that we don't agree on much these days, and neither of us call the other names over it.



I did indeed stop associated because of that. Can you tell me why nobody noticed? Because people didn't want to notice.



If it was anything other than LOTR, I would agree, but I was dragged into it, and comments and agendas are still at work over my opinion of it. I could and should have just quit posting, and then I wouldn't have ruffled any feathers.



Point taken, and I agree I was wrong. I should have just PMd somebody, but I am not 100% sold on any actions being taken. He was asked several times to take his signature off, and he didn't. I'm starting to believe that the relaxed nature is causing a lack of respect. I was asked to remove a signature, and I did it without hesitation. Again, things that people don't know. Remember, I was being the baby in that argument, and not only did torrino say it, but Lecter chimed in and said he had a point. Now do you see why shutting up isn't always the answer? Not one of those guys decided to step in and say it was wrong to insult my mom, brother, or appearance, or to post a picture of me with intent to insult, or to refuse to take down a signature that was put there with an incomplte quote with mocking intentions, but one decided I was the baby, and another backed it up. My respect for both went down. BTW...in a totally seperate incident, I learned from my mistake, and just PMd a mod when there was a problem. It worked much better that way.



We HAVE all been wrong, but until any of those guys ever publicly admit it, then they can keep their comments to themselves, because I'm obviously displaying a level of integrity that they have not. The reason I apologized, is because I realized that. That doesn't mean I do it all the time, or that it hasn't been deserved in the past. Like I said, I'll never do it again, but only if somebody else steps in if I'm insulted. In all my time online, I can only recall a few times where that happened. I treat MovieDude and Libs really good because of it, and I would not think twice about defending either of them if I saw them insulted, as I have in the past.



There are low blows, and then there is crossing the line of decency.



I think that there are mod problems too. Two mods acted completely out of line in this thread. They are supposed to set examples of what you would like to see from me. When they let their emotions rule their posts, it's telling everybody that it's ok to do that. They need to always act above it all, and if they can't, stepping down is probably a wise move, because as these forums expand, more and more trouble will happen. If the mods aren't above it all, why should anybody else be?




Your wish is my command :worthy: , but watch my back, please, and I'll be more than happy to back off everytime. :wink: