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 The Presidential Race -- Results in First Post 
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dolcevita wrote:
Archie Gates wrote:
Iran endorses Bush.

http://www.indystar.com/articles/0/187838-8290-010.html

Clearly worried that Democrats are more likely to focus on such pesky things as human rights.


http://www.indystar.com/articles/0/187838-8290-010.html wrote:

TEHRAN, Iran -- The head of Iran's security council said Tuesday that the re-election of President Bush was in Tehran's best interests, despite the administration's "axis of evil" label, accusations that Iran harbors al-Qaida terrorists and threats of sanctions for the country's nuclear ambitions...

Though Iran generally does not publicly wade into U.S. presidential politics, it has a history of preferring Republicans over Democrats, who tend to press human rights issues...


Makes you kind of think twice about Bush wanting to get Saddam because of Saddam's rights violations. Since he already admitted he wasn't actually doing it because there was any association with Bin Laden...who apprently was never that high on Bush's to do list.

Thanks for the article Archie. Its scarier than this saturday nights viewing of Suspiria is going to be.

-Dolce

The only thing that article proves is that indystar.com (or whoever wrote it) is biased up the wazoo.

"Democrats, who tend to press human rights issues..." my ass.


Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:17 pm
Draughty

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Krem wrote:
I'm sorry Archie, I'm not sure about Iran's logic, but the notion that the Democrats have a better human rights record is laughable.

The last three Republican presidents have overseen and, some would argue, directly caused the removal of opressing regimes in USSR, Eastern Europe, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Meanwhile the last Democratic president hase the following to show for himself: Rwanda, Somalia, and empowerment of North Korea's dictator.

No it wasn't the last 3 republican presidents. It was only Reagan, and he was following on Carter. Carter was the one who started making human rights a major part of American foreign policy, Reagan to his credit picked it up. Bush 41 dropped the ball. Clinton had his faults but he tried. Bush 43 is the least human rights concerned American president I've ever witnessed.


Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:17 pm
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Krem wrote:

Meanwhile the last Democratic president hase the following to show for himself: Rwanda, Somalia, and empowerment of North Korea's dictator.

Which will look fine in history compared to Bush being president during Darfur, Iran's nuclear rise, and Russia's descent into dictatorship.


Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:21 pm
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Archie Gates wrote:
Krem wrote:
I'm sorry Archie, I'm not sure about Iran's logic, but the notion that the Democrats have a better human rights record is laughable.

The last three Republican presidents have overseen and, some would argue, directly caused the removal of opressing regimes in USSR, Eastern Europe, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Meanwhile the last Democratic president hase the following to show for himself: Rwanda, Somalia, and empowerment of North Korea's dictator.

No it wasn't the last 3 republican presidents. It was only Reagan, and he was following on Carter. Carter was the one who started making human rights a major part of American foreign policy, Reagan to his credit picked it up. Bush 41 dropped the ball. Clinton had his faults but he tried. Bush 43 is the least human rights concerned American president I've ever witnessed.

Excuse me? It was Reagan, not Carter who directly took the Soviet Union on, opposed by all the bleeding-heart liberals, including one John Kerry.

And how did Bush 41 drop the ball exactly?


Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:23 pm
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Archie Gates wrote:
Krem wrote:

Meanwhile the last Democratic president hase the following to show for himself: Rwanda, Somalia, and empowerment of North Korea's dictator.

Which will look fine in history compared to Bush being president during Darfur, Iran's nuclear rise, and Russia's descent into dictatorship.

Darfur will be taken care of, unlike Rwanda or Somalia.

The other two you mentioned have not happened yet, so you can't pre-emptively blame Bush for them.


Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:25 pm
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Krem wrote:
dolcevita wrote:
Yes, but if Bush pushes for the option of having President take full control without congressional check in *times of emergency* than that will no longer be the case.

That aside. I don't care if the congress holds Bush in Check in his horrible social agenda. Strom Thurmond and Trent Lott were held in check in the same way...and I'm still pissed those guys were senetors. Some people are in high enough positions in affect to this ocuntry, that what they think id actually important as well as what they do. Believe it or not, the president of the United States and the man who embodies the American ideal is one such man. What he thinks and what he would desire the American landscape to consist of had his power not been subject to some scrutiny [is]is[/i] actually important.

-Dolce

And you're perfectly justified in feeling that way (though do give the others, who do not, the benefit of the doubt). That still does not mean that things you mentioned as a certainty if Bush is elected are true.


Fine. But if you're going to argue that the point that elections have nothing to do with the *vision* of the candidates, than I guess you must be considering voting for Kerry. Because regardless of his insistance that people making over 200K/year will have their tax cuts rolled back, we know the actuality of that happening is minimal. If we're going to argue that it isn't about intention at all, than Bush's "desire" to *restore democracy* to Iraq clearly has minimal sway. Since, to this day, he hasn't.

Your arguement will pretty much lead to such an appathetic approach to politics that a country like this that already has a sub-50% tunrout on election day wouldn't be able to handle it.

-Dolce


Last edited by dolcevita on Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:39 pm
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First of all, I would consider supporting Badnarik way before I would consider supporting Kerry's.

And the chief reason I don't do this, is because I am afraid of both Kerry's and Badnarik's view on national security. I just cannot trust Kerry to do the right thing, and I KNOW Badnarik won't do it.


Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:42 pm
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Krem wrote:
First of all, I would consider supporting Badnarik way before I would consider supporting Kerry's.

And the chief reason I don't do this, is because I am afraid of both Kerry's and Badnarik's view on national security. I just cannot trust Kerry to do the right thing, and I KNOW Badnarik won't do it.

You can't trust Kerry to do the right thing? Other than kowtowing to Sharon, what do you consider the right thing?

I'm sorry but after the collosal and obvious way Bush has screwed up, that is ridiculous. Bush has driven US foreign policy into the ground, and caused a foreign policy mess that will take 20 years of Republican and Democrat successors to clean up. That's not a partisan attack, it's an objective reality shared by a wide array of professionals in the field. *Any* senator, regardless of party, would do a better job than Bush. Yes even Jesse Helms or Ted Kennedy.


Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:18 pm
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Archie Gates wrote:
Krem wrote:
First of all, I would consider supporting Badnarik way before I would consider supporting Kerry's.

And the chief reason I don't do this, is because I am afraid of both Kerry's and Badnarik's view on national security. I just cannot trust Kerry to do the right thing, and I KNOW Badnarik won't do it.

You can't trust Kerry to do the right thing?

I'm sorry but after the collosal and obvious way Bush has screwed up, that is ridiculous. Bush has driven US foreign policy into the ground, and caused a foreign policy mess that will take 20 years of Republican and Democrat successors to clean up. That's not a partisan attack, it's an objective reality shared by a wide array of professionals in the field. *Any* senator, regardless of party, would do a better job than Bush. Yes even Jesse Helms or Ted Kennedy.


Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:19 pm
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Archie Gates wrote:
Krem wrote:
First of all, I would consider supporting Badnarik way before I would consider supporting Kerry's.

And the chief reason I don't do this, is because I am afraid of both Kerry's and Badnarik's view on national security. I just cannot trust Kerry to do the right thing, and I KNOW Badnarik won't do it.

You can't trust Kerry to do the right thing? Other than kowtowing to Sharon, what do you consider the right thing?

Is this your way of saying that Israel runs the U.S. foreign policy?
Archie Gates wrote:
I'm sorry but after the collosal and obvious way Bush has screwed up, that is ridiculous. Bush has driven US foreign policy into the ground, and caused a foreign policy mess that will take 20 years of Republican and Democrat successors to clean up. That's not a partisan attack, it's an objective reality shared by a wide array of professionals in the field. *Any* senator, regardless of party, would do a better job than Bush. Yes even Jesse Helms or Ted Kennedy.

OH NOW, it is not a partisan attack, no siree. Well if it isn't, then you will have no problem whatsoever substantiating it.


Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:39 pm
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... 4&ncid=716

So they're in a dead heat now. I'm curious as to why people are saying Kerry can't win?


Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:18 pm
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makeshift_wings wrote:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041022/ap_on_el_pr/president_ap_poll&cid=694&ncid=716

So they're in a dead heat now. I'm curious as to why people are saying Kerry can't win?


I still think it comes down to Wisconsin.

-Dolce


Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:27 pm
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Also, this: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~drtaylor/kerry/kerry.htm

P.S. If anyone is interested, I've got Colin Powell's phone number ;-)


Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:59 am
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:shock: :shock: :shock:


Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:04 pm
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On my way to vote today :D


Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:17 pm
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Blog roundup.

- "Q: Scott, this morning Senator McCain said that he disagreed with the things that President Bush has said about Senator Kerry misunderstanding the war on terror. What do you guys have to say to that?

A: I think what Senator McCain said was that he believes that the President is the best one to lead us forward in the war on terrorism. He spoke about how the President is leading with moral clarity and strength, and that's what we need as we move forward in the war on terrorism. There's a clear choice on how we approach the war on terrorism and how we lead going forward. And Senator McCain—that's what Senator McCain talked about. I saw what he said earlier.

Q: He did say what you're saying he said, but he also said he disagreed with the characterization of Senator Kerry, so I wanted your reaction to that part of what he said.

A: I don't know if those were his exact words. I think what he focused on—what he focused on was the President's leadership, and how important his leadership is to prevailing in the war on terrorism. And that's what this election is about; it's about who can lead us forward to prevail in the war on terrorism. Senator Kerry has the wrong approach. The reality is we live in dangerous times, and the President has a comprehensive strategy for winning the war on terrorism, and we appreciate Senator McCain's strong support for the strategy that the President is pursuing.

Q: But he did say he disagreed with how the President is characterizing Senator Kerry. So can you guys react to that at all?

A: I think the choice is very clear for the American people. The President is—he'll talk about it again, today, in his remarks. If you look at what Senator Kerry's—if you look at Senator Kerry's record, and look at his views, it is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the war on terrorism. He has a record of weakness when it comes to national security issues. He is someone who has voted to significantly cut intelligence funding, right in the aftermath of the 1993 World Trade Center attacks. He has a view of retreat when it comes to Iraq. It's important that we succeed in Iraq. Senator McCain talked about that this morning, as well, because Iraq is a central commitment to prevailing in the war on terrorism.

—Scott McClellan answering questions at a White House press gaggle, Oct. 22"

http://slate.msn.com/id/2108562/ Slate's "Chatterbox"

-----------

Jesse Ventura endorses Kerry. Via Sullivan's blog.

http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S3582.html?cat=1

-----------

Former Kentucky senator and staunch Republican Marlow Cook: "I am not enamored with John Kerry, but I am frightened to death of George Bush."

via washingtonmonthly.com

------------

http://sneakingsuspicions.com/prayer_cloths.htm

Kerry prayer cloths you can buy!

------------

http://slate.msn.com/id/2108513/

Bush virtually conceding Ohio. From kausfiles blog.

------------

White House pool report: "Flight and motorcade uneventful. Bush was accompanied on AF1 by his daughter Barbara, in tight jeans, and by Dan Bartlett and Karl Rove, who were not wearing tight jeans."

Reported on Wonkette

------------

Newsweek reporter Evan Thomas has a book coming out on how Kerry won the presidency. A snippet from the Amazon.com description "An extraordinary behind-the-scenes look at the 2004 Kerry presidential victory reported by Newsweek's premier political reporters, including bestselling biographer Evan Thomas."

Found on instapundit.com


Fri Oct 22, 2004 3:58 pm
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Archie, I know you're a Democrat, but geez, do you have to be THAT partisan? :shock:


Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:01 pm
Draughty

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I'm not sure what you mean, I thought I was being helpful in culling some of the more interesting bits. I don't expect you to agree with them all, I just thought they were interesting. It's good to know what people are saying and what is going on.

I wouldn't mind if someone did the same thing with the republican blogs out there, though I did include a couple of them too. Kaus and Andrew Sullivan are moderate republicans.


Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:04 pm
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BOYFRESH wrote:
On my way to vote today :D


Boyfresh,

Are you doing early vote casting?

-Dolce


Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:14 pm
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And by the way you responded so fast you missed a lot of the point of it. It's ridiculous for evan thomas to be writing a how kerry won book before he even won. And the prayer mat thing was meant to be funny, as if Kerry supporters need to pray that they have a chance at winning.

But the first part, sure that was a bit partisan but then the spokesman was acting like Baghdad Bob, it was amusing and worth pointing out.

Anyway, I'm done explaining myself. I'm a centrist, it's just some republicans are so entrenched they think anyone who is not with them is against them.


Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:16 pm
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dolcevita wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/19/international/middleeast/19CND-CARE.html?hp&ex=1098244800&en=f34a22fbda5f64f0&ei=5094&partner=homepage wrote:

Relief Agency Official Is Kidnapped in Baghdad

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Oct. 19 — The British-born director of Care International in Iraq was kidnapped today as she drove to her office, and hours later appeared on a televised videotape made by her abductors.

Margaret Hassan, who maintains dual nationality, was pulled from her car by a group of men, who also beat her driver and guard with their rifle butts, her co-workers said...

Ms. Hassan married an Iraqi and has lived in Iraq for more than 30 years. She began working for Care in 1991 or 1992, soon after the first Gulf War ended, but she has been involved in humanitarian relief for 25 years. She is the director of the Baghdad office.

"She has been there three decades, over half her life, and considered herself to be more of an Iraqi national," said Kate Bulbulian, the charity's spokeswoman in London. "That is what her life is."

Ms. Hassan, who speaks fluent Arabic, spoke out against the economic sanctions imposed on Iraq following the first Gulf War in 1991, and against the war that began in 2003. In both cases, she said, ordinary Iraqis would suffer greatly...

British Prime Minister Tony Blair said today that British troops would be deployed north, to Iraq's more troubled and dangerous areas, only if it makes good military sense. The possibility that Britain may position troops in volatile areas, away from Basra, the British stronghold in the south, has raised concerns among lawmakers here and led to charges that Mr. Blair is seeking to lift President Bush's re-election bid...


I just really wonder what is going to happen in the next month. I don't think anything done at this point with 3 weeks left is really going to affect the situation enough to make anyone feel more secure. So unlike this article, I really don't think that's the logic. Still, some very rash actions could take place between now and Nov. 2nd, and this election is pretty much, still, ALL about Iraq and/or National Security. So is the election really in foreign hands in a sense?


There is updated information that she's begging for British troop withdrawel. I'm going to post it in a second.

-Dolce


Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:19 pm
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Archie Gates wrote:
And by the way you responded so fast you missed a lot of the point of it. It's ridiculous for evan thomas to be writing a how kerry won book before he even won. And the prayer mat thing was meant to be funny, as if Kerry supporters need to pray that they have a chance at winning.

But the first part, sure that was a bit partisan but then the spokesman was acting like Baghdad Bob, it was amusing and worth pointing out.

Anyway, I'm done explaining myself. I'm a centrist, it's just some republicans are so entrenched they think anyone who is not with them is against them.

The reason I responded so fast is because I've seen all of that stuff today. You're not the only one who visits blogs, you know ;-)

I dunno, I just find it hard to believe that you only look at the stuff that's damagin to Bush without seeing a lot of stuff that's damaging to Kerry.

And about that book: for what it's worth, if you actually follow the link, it says Kerry/Bush, meaning that whoever wins, there will be a book coming out about them.


Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:30 pm
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dolcevita wrote:
dolcevita wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/19/international/middleeast/19CND-CARE.html?hp&ex=1098244800&en=f34a22fbda5f64f0&ei=5094&partner=homepage wrote:

Relief Agency Official Is Kidnapped in Baghdad

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Oct. 19 — The British-born director of Care International in Iraq was kidnapped today as she drove to her office, and hours later appeared on a televised videotape made by her abductors.

Margaret Hassan, who maintains dual nationality, was pulled from her car by a group of men, who also beat her driver and guard with their rifle butts, her co-workers said...

Ms. Hassan married an Iraqi and has lived in Iraq for more than 30 years. She began working for Care in 1991 or 1992, soon after the first Gulf War ended, but she has been involved in humanitarian relief for 25 years. She is the director of the Baghdad office.

"She has been there three decades, over half her life, and considered herself to be more of an Iraqi national," said Kate Bulbulian, the charity's spokeswoman in London. "That is what her life is."

Ms. Hassan, who speaks fluent Arabic, spoke out against the economic sanctions imposed on Iraq following the first Gulf War in 1991, and against the war that began in 2003. In both cases, she said, ordinary Iraqis would suffer greatly...

British Prime Minister Tony Blair said today that British troops would be deployed north, to Iraq's more troubled and dangerous areas, only if it makes good military sense. The possibility that Britain may position troops in volatile areas, away from Basra, the British stronghold in the south, has raised concerns among lawmakers here and led to charges that Mr. Blair is seeking to lift President Bush's re-election bid...


I just really wonder what is going to happen in the next month. I don't think anything done at this point with 3 weeks left is really going to affect the situation enough to make anyone feel more secure. So unlike this article, I really don't think that's the logic. Still, some very rash actions could take place between now and Nov. 2nd, and this election is pretty much, still, ALL about Iraq and/or National Security. So is the election really in foreign hands in a sense?


There is updated information that she's begging for British troop withdrawel. I'm going to post it in a second.

-Dolce

Nobody is going to withdraw the troops. The beheadings are sad, but leaving Iraq is much worse.


Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:32 pm
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http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/22/international/middleeast/22CND-HOSTAGE.html?hp&ex=1098504000&en=2ab67cdea108b896&ei=5094&partner=homepage wrote:
CARE Official Held Hostage in Iraq Pleads for Her Life

[i]BAGHDAD, Iraq, Oct. 22 - A British-Iraqi aid worker held hostage by a militant group made a tearful televised plea for her life today, begging the people of England and British Prime Minister Tony Blair to save her by withdrawing troops from Iraq...

Ms. Hassan was referring to an announcement by the British Defense Ministry on Thursday that 850 British troops would be moved from the south to volatile central Iraq to allow American soldiers more time to prepare for an invasion of Falluja, the insurgent stronghold 35 miles west of Baghdad...

No foreign woman who has been abducted has been killed. Last month, insurgents kidnapped two female Italian aid workers and released them weeks later. More than 150 foreigners have been taken captive, most of them by bandits seeking ransoms, but a few by fighters looking to use the hostages as propaganda tools in the guerrilla war...

Ms. Hassan began working for CARE after the Persian Gulf War of 1991, though she has been involved in relief work for a quarter-century. She leads a staff of about 60 people who distribute medicine and medical supplies to hospitals and help restore access to clean water. Ms. Hassan was an outspoken critic of the sanctions imposed on Iraq by the United Nations after the 1991 war...

The American military said marines fought with insurgents on the outskirts of Falluja for the second day in a row. The marines were attacked with small-arms fire and mortars from within the city, the military said. The statement added that the marines had countered with "substantial and proportionate ground fires..."


Ok. i don't believe in immediate withdrawel. we dig the grave, I guess we need to lie down in it. But the question is really how to effectively finish this off. This is not a type of "military engagement" we have any previously existing knowledge of how to handle, or at least, I don't think so. I have heard little at this point from either candidate, and have heard nothing from England, about any *change* in tactics. All I've heard about fighting insurgency sounds like D-Day. Frankly, I just read another article saying the extremist groups are gaining funds and sympathizers, so I want to know when there is going to be a major overhaul of approaches and understanding of this war.

-Dolce


Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:33 pm
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There doesn't have to be a major overhaul of approaches. What needs to happen is the election of a legitimate government in Iraq and increasing the contingent of Iraqi troops.


Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:35 pm
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