Does that mean you loved it and are too moved to think about it clearly...

or you hated it and can't believe how disappointed you are?

The former, as Mav indicated in another thread. He was heartbroken. I'd this is easily his No. 1 movie of the year.

How to put this....

I doubt Mavy would hate this film even if he hated it.

It's not a knock, it's just that he's been a vocal supporter of this film sight unseen. And he was a huge supporter of Mystic River and Eastwood last year.

Honestly, I can see some people here at KJ heralding other film projects if they were in a similar situation. Shit happens.

I just got caught reading a lot of negative Yahoo reviews. A lot of negative reviews I have read have indicated that they feel the ending is...

(highlight to read)

...entirely supportive of euthenasia and anti-disabled people.

I really don't agree with that, as an individual who is around suicide and has himself been suicidal there isn't always a lot of easy choices, and I don't believe Frankie's choice at the end of the film is an easy one either. He basically sells the rest of his soul for Maggie. It absolutely destroys him in almost every way possible.

I think what a lot of people are missing is that Maggie's motivation was to be in the ring, not for being a champion of the disabled or being a hero, taking her "disability to the ring!". Her entire identity was centered around being self-sufficient and being a boxer, and while true, if she waited a little while she may have settled into a self-loathing but okay existance, Maggie's goal in the ring was to make snap decisions and snap wins, so why should her rush to judgement of assisted suicide be any different. Not all people with disabilities think the way Christopher Reeves did. If I went blind at this point in my life and could no longer see the sunrise or the sunset, view films or experience the world outside, I couldn't really go on either.

There is a weird moral superiority that people who "want to live" feel they have over the rest of us who struggle with issues of life and death every day. It makes me hate a lot of people. It's not hard to sympathize with Maggie's decision.

For the people who want to see the story of a "winner", they can watch Ray, as he overcomes his disabilities to propel himself to the top, but Million Dollar Baby IS a story of self destruction and of obsessive myopic people. Both stories are equally real. And that's why they are so incredibly good. Eastwood took a huge chance jumping out with this picture, and it's going to suffer the typical backlash against "liberal Hollywood" without people, in my view, really understanding that it's not trying to teach a morality or express a political agenda, it's merely one of 6 billion stories that could happen, and does happen, in this world.

I erased your hidden as I didn't feel like hiding it.

I disagree alittle with your analysis. Didn't she say something like this in the movie. After all I have had and gone through, I can't live like this.

Also early in the movie, she talked about all she was good at was fighting ( even though she wasn't that good at that point ) or wanted to do and if fighting wasn't an option, she really had nothing else.

*spoilers*

Actually, andaroo, I agree with you. I think this film is very sensitive to those issues though. Remeber Freeman says people die everyday not having fulfilled what they set out to accomplish, and ultimately this is not about death, or staying alive, but having lived the life one wanted to live, and not being able to envision it differently. Maggie was in full mental capabilities when she made that decision, and it's not the same as depression. Alot of people against euthenasia think its because people can't envision their lives being different, vs. people who can, and are choosing not to go that route regardless. Frankie was trying to get her to go back to school, and in theory she could have been the next Hwakins, but she didn't want it. She'd set out to achieve what she'd set out to accomplish. What's left? It was not an easy moment in the movie, and Clint definately wasn't making it some flippant decision of that's completely irrash. What people forget due to time-lapse, etc, is that she was bed-ridden for a long time. It took months to move her from the first hospital to rehab, and then months more for her leg to rot, etc. She'd been like that for months, maybe a year, before she made that desicion. Its never easy. I don't see it as being a liberal vs. conservative issue as much as just a taboo one across the board. People just aren't comfortable with the idea of someone choosing to die. I wouldn't be either. But Eastwood gives the situation the gravity and respect it deserves,so dislike it or no, its not un-thought out or some massivfe political/activist statement. Actually in my review I noted that its not social commentary oriented at all. He was not making sweeping accusations or suggestions. It was a very personal moment, and that's it. People pushing it into broader contexts have their own issues to work out, because to me it didn't feel like that at all. It felt like he supports, if anything, a case by case view of euthenasia.

My review: http://www.worldofkj.com/Galia-MDB.php

So, I finally got out to see MDB. I was very satisfied with this one. I wan't to think about it a little more, and maybe sleep on it, before I give it a grade. Right now, it's definately hovering around the B+/A- mark, mainly because MDB isn't my type of a movie. I prefer quirky comedy over dramatic pieces, but I must say this was a very good film. In my top ten of 2004 with Sideways, which I recently managed to see.

See, excellent points! I agree completely. MDB didn't bring us characters as complex as Mystic River. I think that's why I'm leaning towards B+/A- for MDB, with Mystic River being the A on the same scale. Still, like I said before, it was a very good film. I need to convince my dad to rent this one.

YOU SHOULDN'T READ ANY FARTHER IN THIS TOPIC UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE SPOILED


You make many great and fanastic points that I will have to think about, but this is the one that interests me the most.

I hope I'm phrasing this right, I'm completely pooped this evening... I guess it's an issue of shades of grey. I mean, if a good portion of the society is depressed, or has some form of depression are they not within their right minds in order to make decisions for themselves? That's kind of a pandora's box, and as a functioning but clinically diagnosed depressive, I'm not sure that Maggie WASN'T depressed. There are many great people that are massively depressed and capable of accomplishing great things (which I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with).

In the end, I guess I come back to the point that I think people want this to be Rocky or want it to be something that's more about "overcoming the odds" and is a sense it is, but it's also about the crushing reality of the train coming to a complete stop. What's more important for the audience to realize that her decision is made not because she has lost the use of her legs, but because she can no longer be a boxer.

And I disagree about the characters in Million Dollar Baby and Mystic River, I think the 3 leads are infinately more complex than, say, Kevin Bacon's character in Mystic River. Not that I want to get on the Mystic River thread. I don't think the 3 M$B leads were necessarily great people. As I said before they are obsessed, myopic people who have deeply flawed and conditional relationships.

This is a good topic by the way. I'd like to hear from some people in the discussion who had problems with the third act. If there is any???

Actually, I see what you're saying and didn't mean to coach it in exactly that way. You point out the insufficencies of my words. What I meant was that people find her desicion impulsive, and that, as you put it, had she "overcome" it and gone to city university, etc, she would again be happy. Its a tough call to make because I do not think it was so impulsive at all. She did what she set out to do. She wanted to be a professional boxer, she did that...now what.

Its a ctually a trickier subject in "real life," where athletes expire (due to age, ability, etc) all the time, and pretty much go into reitrment at the latest at 35. What did they envision for the next 65 years. The fact that Maggie went through such dramatic changes makes it less problematic of a desicion than say, I failed attempt at the NBA, like in Hoop Dreams. Those families pushed for school full well knowing even if their kids were pros, it wouldn't last for ever.

I don't know, she was in a very extreme space nd I think was pretty honest in her saying she wanted to die with only fond memories. I don'[t think that suites everyone best, and I don't really know much more than that. Its not something I've faced (of course). But I'm trying to figure out the discomfort with euthenasia...especially in light of how extreme her case was. Considering she could have lost, her career could have been over (you only get one shot) and she could have killed herself anyways just because she still oculdn't envision anything else she wanted to do. Her accident was actually the least controversial way to tackle the question.

Its tricky, so I see you point there is never a fine line, but that's exactly why people distrust other's to make their own desicion. I think part of the reason Clint did it was because in his heart he also realized she didn't have an alternative. If he'd though she could miraculously get her life back (Terry Chiavas thread in cooler deals with this content as we write) than he probably wouldn't have gone ahead with it. But he couldn't really find another vision for her to work towards either. The city university stuff was desperation on his part I think. Not a sustained belief.

Hmmmmmmm......

To Dolce, The main reason that I was impressed with Swank were the couple of scenes she had with Eastwood and Freeman while in the gym.

Her speeches and conversations were so powerful from where she was coming from. I was just very impressed with those parts of the movie.

*****SPOILERS IN THIS POST*****

The third act is what brought the film down from being very good to being just good/ok in my eyes. It all starts with the boxing scenes where we see Maggie making her way up in the ranks to eventually secure a title shot. I was with her character up until these scenes, but once the KO after KO began it sort of felt like a parody on pugilism. A more detailed explanation can be found in my review on the first page, but let's just say that this section of the film just didn't seem to gel with the realistic tone of what came before it.

Maybe I could have forgiven the cliched boxing if it were not for the completely unbelievable in-ring accident that sets the whole third act in motion. Not in a million years would a fighter get suckered after the bell and then happen to fall on an overturned ring stool.....Never. I began to think why the writers didn't just have Maggie experience an accident outside of the ring, perhaps in a car-crash after winning the title. But then it occurred to me that it was a little more poignant that she have this happen to her while doing what she loved to do. Okay, fine and dandy, but I'm sure they could have figured another way of presenting an in-ring accident. For example, the girl she was fighting could have just proven a better fighter than Maggie and knocked her out, sending her crashing to the mat, thus breaking her neck. This scenario could also have lead to an even greater feeling of guilt from Eastwood's character for deciding to train her. I just can't get over how ridiculous the freak accident seemed to me and it really caused me to lose almost all emotional involvement for the remainder of the movie.

It doesn't help matters when they parade her family full of cartoon characters into the hospital room. I didn't mind the earlier scene when Maggie is showing her mom the house she bought, but here it just seems too over-the-top. Also, it began to feel a bit manipulative when they revealed the bed sores and yet another hardship was thrown her way. The main problem here I think, is that we don't hear enough from Maggie at this point in the film. Of course her condition made it difficult to speak, but I needed to get a greater sense of why she wanted Frankie to end her life, apart from reiterating something from a discussion they had had previously. I would have appreciated it if Frankie had talked to her about it more. I needed something more than "I've achieved more than I even thought I would..." to really feel the desperation necessary to make such a decision.

My standpoint on Euthanasia is neither here nor there, so I can assure you that that did not have an effect on my experience of the end of this movie. I feel that that scene where Clint tells Maggie what those words mean and ends her life could have been magnificent if the above problems I outlined were somehow rectified.

Sorry, I've been away 'til now, and couldn't get back to anybody. I was going to do a review, but I suppose I can just discuss it instead. (Careful of spoilers ahead) What I meant by that, is that I have never felt the heart wrenching angst from any other movie, like this one gave me. Perhaps the most powerful movie I've ever seen. I've been through a similiar sudden tragedy, so it stirred memories up, and so did the story of her German Shepherd, Axel, and how he lost use of his hind quarters. That's how that breed of dog die, their hips go, and they lose the use of their back legs, and you have to put them down. I had a German Shepherd when I was growing up that died like that, and one day, that will be Ringo.

The movie itself is a masterpiece of the cinema. (and no , loyal, if it would have disappointed, I would have said so) Clint Eastwood gave a performance on the level with the best that's ever been done. Both his directing and acting are superb in this picture, and I could understand a sweep at the Oscars, because the movie is excellent, Morgan Freeman , once again, gave an outstanding performance, and Hillary Swank was awesome. I liked the relationships in the movie quite a bit that Frankie and Maggie had. It felt very real. All of the performances were incredible, but Eastwood's was my favorite. Maybe because he was the best, maybe because I like him best. He was great either way.

There were some real standout moments in the movie, and something that really stood out in the directing, was that Clint made the tragic incident happen so unsuspecting, because of some great skills. As the director, he introduced that corner stool on a joke, as Maggie would get up after the bell would ring, and knock the girl out in such quick fashion that Frankie was putting the stool back in the corner again before he even sat it down. When he did it the last time, that stool was just a harmless old friend. Little did we all know. That was handled brilliantly!

I thought the most powerful moment in the movie was when she asked him to kill her so she didn't have to suffer, or didn't have anything else amputated. That asks a disturbing question of us all, and I've been in that very situation. It's not easy to watch somebody that you love, who was once so full of life, be on their back helpless in the blink of an eye. It changes your perspective very fast. If somebody was suffering so badly that they asked me to end it for them, and I loved that person, I would do it. I felt like crying, it broke my heart so badly. The entire cast and crew deserve all the praise in the world for this great movie.

Have you seen 21 Grams and Amores Perros?

Well, interesting comments here. I am looking forward to Million Dollar Baby, after Mystic River made my TOP 10 of 2003. Mostly I loved Mystic River for its amazing story development and the amazing acting by Tim Robbins and Sean Penn (who I though, however, deserved the Oscar far more for 21 Grams than for Mystic River in which he overacted a bit). Marcia Gay Harden character annoyed me, but that's probably was the purpose of her role more or less. Considering the cast of Million Dollar Baby, I can hardly imagine the movie not being good.

God, the characters must be very superficial then. Mystic River was an overrated piece in terms of acting, story and characters. It was good, but nowhere near outstanding. My interest in M$B is dropping daily...

Your interest is dropping because of what one person says? It sounds like you are looking hard for reasons to have your interest drop if that's the case.

I don't agree at all that the characters aren't as complex as those in Mystic River. I think they are actually more complex, and I thought the characters were awesome in Mystic River.

Yeah, I don't really get this comment either. I think the trap is looking at Maggie/Frankie, etc and assigning movie stereotypes to them is what is sinking this movie for a few. That's not to say that Mystic River isn't complex, they are just different people.

BennyBlanco, you have interesting comments. The accident is indeed freakish and questionable but I believe that's really addressed in the film. I dunno, it's completely up to the user if they want to buy what the screenwriters are giving out. In another review someone said they were thrown out of the movie by the horrible care that the hospital workers give Maggie.

I think the purpose of the accident haven't to occur in the ring is that it really needs to be left up in the air whether or not Maggie reached her goal or not. If Maggie just would have lost, I think she would have gone on with her life, retrained, and came back for the title and gotten a house and a kid and grown old.

Just like last year's way over-rated Mystic River, we get another serving of contrived hokum from director Clint Eastwood with his new film Million Dollar Baby. Luckily for us, this time it's top notch contrived hokum - at least the first half is - before it spirals down in a tailspin and crashes into the side of Mount Maudlin. All the actors are predictably good (but no more than that). Wahtever - it'll be prime oscar bait for sure...

3 out of 5.

(Note: If you are planning on seeing this movie, I recommend that you read as little as possible about this movie - it could be easily spoiled by a clumsy critic.)

Absolutely the best of the year. l had one problem with it...the score. lt just wasnt that good, and was kinda pointless. Otherwise, despite being horribly sad and tragic, it was amazing. And l don't care if Hilary Swank beat out Bening 6 years ago, or whatever...she deserves Best Actress, hands down.

It is the best movie I have seen since Saving Private Ryan. It is even better than Mystic River, which I consider to be a Masterpiece. It is funny, touching and ultimately gut wrenching. The Aviator is not even half the movie this is. Hilary Swank's performance might be the best I have seen in a very long time. Clint Eastwood and Morgan Freeman are fantastic.

A++

Every year there's a film heralded as a masterpiece. This year, out of left field, it's Eastwood's follow up to Mystic River.

Is Million Dollar Baby as great as critics say it is? Well, it's the third best film set in the world of boxing ever made (and that ain't bad).

Freeman, Swank, and Eastwood (the weakest of the three by far) all do great work in a film that, by design, has a so-so story. In a nutshell, Freeman and Eastwood play life partners of sort, Eddie and Frankie, both veterans of boxing. Their lives are changed when Swank who plays Maggie wanders into the gym. It's a comfortable variation from there on of a rags to riches sport tale told a thousand times over. Anyone who's seen Rocky can guess for the first hour most of the dialogue and actions before they take place. The film does takes a surprising turn in the third act and like most Oscar nominees, there's quite a bit of crying.

Flaws in Million Dollar Baby are few and far between, mostly thanks to Eastwood's skill as a filmmaker. However for the flaws that do exist, some are large and glaring.

For a film that has such richly drawn lead characters, the rest of the cast are horrible cliches and caricatures worthy of late night cable movies. These are some of the most empty portrayals I've ever seen in a Hollywood motion picture. Some, like Maggie's mom are so over the top, you think you're watching an SNL skit. And others, like the priest, the various seedy managers, and assorted boxers in the gym, whenever they step into frame, the film comes to an immediate halt. So much care was taken with the leads, I only wish the same was true for the entire cast.

Stylistically, there were a few choices that seemed out of place. The editing and pacing of the boxing matches had a comedic effect, they lacked any urgency or truth.

The score never really seemed to connect. A great example was the music that played when Maggie's antagonist made her appearance for the big fight. I haven't seen such heavy handed use of music in foreshadowing since Darth Vader's introduction in Star Wars or for that matter, the Jaws theme.

There was a point towards the end of the film where numerous fade outs were used for no real reason (wasn't there another film recently that did the same thing). The fade outs didn't seem to convey a real passage of time, and for such a stripped down production, they weren't really needed.

There's a backstory between Frankie and his daughter that plays throughout the film and is left unresolved. Normally, that wouldn't be an issue. The problem that arises here is that we are lead to believe from the opening frame and Eddie's narration, that Frankie and Eddie are the only family each other has. And yet, Frankie does something in the end that cinematically makes little sense and ulimately cheapens his character.

Those issues aside, Million Dollar Baby lives and dies on the acting of the three leads. If you can forgive the story and the supporting cast, you'll find yourself enjoying and suffering through some the best lead acting of the year.

B

Finally, it is somebody's opinion. All the LOTR fanboys generally are "finding problems" in Million Dollar Baby. That is their prerogative. Probably has to do more with a lot of people feeling that Mystic River was far superior to ROTK.

Million Dollar Baby - 9.5/10.