FULL STORY:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... abortion_2


Meh..personally I do not think it will pass. The fact that noone can even prove when life really "begins" leads me to believe that abortion will never be illegalized.
I am suprised however that one of the most prominent figures in making abortion legal is now an advocate for the pro-life campaign. I wonder how many anti-death penalty rallies she attends??? Ahh well



Thoughts?

Well experiences teaches people to change their opinions ... she probably had some experiences too. I remember Amit commenting once on how exactly a fetus is destroyed .. once you view something like that, who knows, maybe that is enough to change ones' opinion too. it differs from person to person i guess.

Did she cite any reasons for her change of heart?

No...I'm sure you could find it somewhere on the internet though.

Do you support the women's right to choose baba?

This will not be overturned. If it is overturned the only issue social conservatives have is gay marraige and how can they convince the sheep to follow if there are no hot button issues.

This woman sounds like a moron.

BTW, People on both sides are hypocrites.

Liberals say it is a woman's choice and are in favor of abortion but have no problem standing up for some scumbag killer's right to live.

Conservatives say they are pro-life unless it is criminals, non-christians (collateral damage being the most common excuse) and do not give a shit after the baby is born.

Morality cannot be applied selectively. Either you are right or you are wrong.

One of the reasons (though not the onyl and note ven the most important) why I can't quite agree with abortion being right.

*sigh*

I don't know. It's a life from the beginning. I don't see how you can even challenge that. But we are life. Trees are life. Yet there's a big difference in the two.

So since I'm too dumb, does anyone know at what stage the festus can feel anything? At what stage can it think and such?

We do know a lot more now than we did in the 70s. And a lot has happened. You know if you don't use protection there's always a chance for pregnancy. There's the day-after pill. So the only reason (yes there's always rape and other cases, I'll mention it again: those are "special cases") why you might need an abortion is that you weren't resposible enough. Soo...

2 points:

1. If Roe v. Wade is overturned, that does not mean that abortion will be banned. It will only mean that such deicisions would be up to the states to decide, as they should be (in my opinion). It's an easy mistake to make, but that is a very crucial point.

2. I thought dolcevita had a copyright on "Meh". What's up with that, Bill?

Abortion and the death penalty are very different issues; using the same moral test for them will not yield good results. Hence the supposed hypocrisy, that in reality isn't there most of the time.

A fetus can not feel pain until around 3 months into the pregnancy, and over 90% of abortions happen before then. Normally, the only abortions performed after this stage are "mother's life at risk" kinds.

Hmm, yeah then that doesn't change my opinion much. I can't morally approve of them after that stage...especially with the methods used during an abortion. And then partial-birth abortion... :???:

Meh...I decided to let him use it this one time without demanding a fee. But if he uses *Bwahahaha!* then it's gonna cost big bucks.

As to your first statement. I'm not sure. On one hand I argue that State's rights is interesting because some states identify with regions outside of the U.S. more than they do within it, etc. And that maybe its an interesting way to re-align geographic and socio-political thought, but on the other hand, some of the states in this country are damn huge and I pittu someone who would need an abortion down in the tip of Texas. Many people can't necessarily afford the plane ticket either financially or time constraints (what if you don't want to reveal to your boss, etc). And no I don't mean Texas will necessarily go for it (though I'm pretty sure it will) I just meant that state is huge and there is no easy way out of it. What if you live in a region were several states ban it and need to get out to the coast? Its not that feasable, especially if you are young and maybe didn't tell parents, etc. I dunno, if its going to get broken down by region, it might have to be broken down into smaller units, otherwise I say the federal might have to step in. Lets be honest, my joke about women just leaving those states is nothing more than a joke, it won't happen, so we need to deal with these questions logistically as well. Its tough because as a federal statute it still hasn't ensured access, and many areas have no doctors willing to perform it or heavy aggression towards anyone considering it. It would be interesting to do research about these places in order to anticipate some of the problems that could arise from the State's rights call.

Frist of all, "partial-birth abortion" doesn't exist. That's a pharse and scare tactic coined by the religious right. The closest things to partial birth abortion would be what is called D&E, or Dilation and evacuation. Again, this procedure is only used when the mother's life is at risk.

Secondly, the "methods" aren't nearly as barbaric as some would like you to believe. The "worst" form of abortion is called "surgical abortion", but, again, that is rarely used. Most abortions are now done with Methotrexate and Mifepristone. One is an injection and the other is a pill. The result is similar to a miscarriage.

We've talked about this before, I believe. Bottom line is this: it's a question of whether or not you consider a fetus a human being. The federal government's position is that it is not; it could remove itself from making that decision (which I believe is the proper thing to do), and let each state decide for itself.

Will abortion be banned in Texas? Most likely. Is that a good thing for the state of Texas? I think it's up to them to decide.

@Krem: I've been using Meh for a long time.

@Lovemerox: Its a hard question. Like it was mentioned, when does life begin. I don't know. I never investigated it. Do I support a woman's right to choose? Well frankly, under most conditions, I do not even consider it a woman's right to begin with. I have stated my reasons countless number of times before though. With free time, hopefully converse with you about this again on IM.

Does that mean I'm against abortion? I'm much like Rod on this cept a bit more extreme maybe. I 100% discourage it. If indeed we one day know when life starts or not, i would love to see any law that legalizes abortion during that time illegal ... and if people remained indecisive about when life starts, if there was a vote taken .. sigh .. good possibility i would like to vote against its legalization "cept under certain circumstances". I do completely agree with Dolce when she says these special conditions are humiliating and desgrading, having to prove you're raped and such but sadly, that one for me is an important point to address on how society works .... i see the alternative even worse. Do I have issues with people who WOULD get an abortion? No ... whether i think its right or wrong. I'm not in a place to judge people's lives. And with abortion, that becomes an issues. Circumstances can cause people to do it and whether i believe life has started or not, put in conditions such as those, I myself wouldn't know what decision I'll end up taking. It sound very hypocritical and i make no excuses. It is very hypocritical of me, to say on the one hand to make it illegal yet not be sure what i myself would opt for, given the conditions.

Well of course its not a clear situation, and that's why many things people say come across paradoxical. Its very hard to take an ideological stance because there are still so many platforms the Abortion issue lies in. I'd rather people admit they would vote one way despite being unsure what they would do in the situation than to come tromping in and just say no ifs ands or butts. Abortion is still a personal desicion, and the question is wether we remove that decision from the person's involved. Many people including myself would speak to all your points but arrive at a different conclusion. yes, I do not know what I would do if personally faced with the situation, but now I would prefer then to still put the decision in my own hands than vote it off ahead of time. So while you say that would would probably vote no, I would vote yes, and let individuals and families decide.

I hate to quote Sharpton very much, but he did say something I agree with:



And that's how I feel about it. The fact of the matter is there will never be either one *proof* of when a fetus is considered a person, and there will also never be one treatment method, as makeshift pointed out. So it ultimately should depend on the individual. I'll take this back should that one proof or one method ever exist.

And yes, I can't believe people sleep well at night feeling okay with women having to prove extrenuating circumstances. I've mentioned why before and I'm glad you realized what I was saying bABA. If people are against it, they're going to have to deal with the repercussions of being against it, period. Now they can sleep easy feeling like they left a *way out* for rape and incest victims without realizing that proving you've one has been raped is not a way out at all, because I doubt most people would want to do that and then live with the public knowledge of it. Its one of the most personal experiences and traumas possible. So either you're against it or you leave it in the hands of the mother or couple to decide, that's it. Sorry there are no in betweens with this dumb-ass *rare exception* policy.

As to state's rights, I've already mentioned above that it is tricky. It plays into a larger issue of decentralization that I'm not sure if using this one issue to push it through will have repercussions in other agendas as well. So is it a state's right to harbor voting policy? Because that's the previous time it was argued. And using it one way will of course mean it can be used in many, so for me it fits into a larger position that I've not quite decided on.

Hee hee.

Like i said, i understand the argument against "the dumb ass rare exception" policy but i would still opt for it and sleep "a little better" knowing i didn't vote for abortion and killed off an unborn child (kind of an ironic thing to say) if the case exists.

dolce, do you agree that at the most basic level, the abortion issue is not really about abortion, but about the value of women in society? I've thought this for a long time now, and I was just wondering if anyone else agreed.

would you mind if i answer this question too?

would you mind if i answer this question too?

Go for it, bABA.

Can we please stop talking about rape as if it's the only reason women get abortions?


The number of pregnancies resulting from rape is miniscule, both because of physiological factors (what's the probability that a woman gets pregnant during an intercourse without ANY protection? It's around 3-5%, I believe), and because of the issues pertaining specifically to rape (it's much harder to get pregnant when your body is all stressed out).

In fact, rape does not even register on the list of reasons women get abortions. So to base your entire opinion about abortion just on that point alone is dishonest.

As for states rights: the government has only one job to do - protect our fundamental rights. The most important of those rights is the right to life. If a fetus was considered to be human by the Supreme Court, then Roe v. Wade would not pass the constitutional test.

Now, this question is more philosophical than it is scientifical. There is no "proof" one way or another, you just have to arbitrarily define who humans are. In light of this, I do not believe that it should be up to the courts to discuss philosophical issues like this, but rather it should be up to the people.

The voting analogy is flawed, as voting is a right thet is protected by the Constitution very explicitely. Abortion is not.

I'll answer too, wether he wants me to or not :razz:

While that might be the case for some people, generally, I think...no not at all. I completely believe women to be equal human beings, and as such, they should have the same right as men.

But by nature, it is a woman who becomes pregnant, nothing you can do about it, if it were men I'd probably feel the same way. (Though I actually think since I know I'll never be in that situation I think that makes me more unbiased. I feel it is wrong most of the time....if I knew I coild be in such a situation, would I be pro-choice, even if I felt it was wrong just so that I'd have the choice? Just cause something is wrong doesn't mean we wouldn't want to have the opportunity to do that thing. You could also say since I'll never be in that situation I wouldn't be really be able to understand what it's like, though).


But for me it's more about the fetus. It's a life of its own (IMO, I guess :wink: ) and as such no one, not even its mother should have the right to decide when to terminate its life.

No, it's really about abortion. There are a great many cases when it's the father who wants the wife to have an abortion, wouldn't it be logical them for them dirty males to support abortion?

Rod, you just kind of proved my point at the end, though. You're willing to give something that you admit you're not even sure if it's a "life" or not more rights than a living, breathing, thinking women.

Thanx.

I wanted to answer it cause well, i did just say right now that under most circumstances, i dont even think it IS a woman's right. I don't know if that implies that i somehow devalue a woman's place in society. To me, women are sadly more directly effected as you're pretty much playing host to another life, and suffering for a few months (or being blessed as some people put it : ) ) and you feel its consequences a bit after that.

But no, i dont consider it a devaluation of women. I may take away a right from them but i dont think its their place to have that right in the first place, pretty much how i don't think its my right to do a lot of things as well. I don't like the idea that just because you're a woman and get pregnant, you have the option to just abort because, meh ... i dont feel like having one. True, as i said before, put me in that same situation and i run into social societal pressures and stuff, i might make such a decision too and i would feel terrible cause i know its wrong. I do believe that this whole issue has more to do with the creation of life itself and nothing more. I also think to an extent that its an issue about responsibilities and how people have enough resource out there to find a way of not negating their responsibilities (men and women included).

There are multiple issues here actually and a very interesting topic to discuss. On the one hand, its easy for people to condemn someone for doing so (even for the right reasons) because theres a good probability they'll never ever run into this problem to begin with (unwanted child) or even if its unwanted, they'll opt to have it because THEY CAN.

On the other hand, we as people want to rid ourselves of most responsibilities in life if we can .... abortion in some ways allows people to act irresponsibly cause they know theres always an option to get out of it. There are some very very good arguments for abortion as well but i think because abortion needs to be defended in our society right now, issues such as "when life begins" arise and sometimes, not even solved. People who don't like the idea will use that as an absolute reason for not legalising abortion, people who have only a good excuse for needing or wanting one but no more will continue supporting the idea that life begins much later.

Eh? You kinda lost me....