I've noticed alot of Se7en loving here lately and I have to admit I saw it opening weekend in theatres when I was young and don't remember it that well. I remember all of it I should say except for the confusing ending, which confused me even then. I have the distinct feeling the last two sins were botched. Even then I remember thinking that they did'nt die from their sins.


*spoilers*

What does paltrow's head have to do with any of the sins? I thought she was the object d'innocence in the film. How does Kevin Spacey die by his own sin? He is killed and dies because he sins, but not in the direct parallel the five predating murders established. And of course, Pitt doesn't even die, so what's up with that?

*end spoilers*

Someone explain please?

I believe the death of Paltrow is considered 'Envy', because Spacey was envious of Pitt's life, or something like that.

Spacey is 'Wrath' because Pitt finds about his wife and his wrath/anger causes Pitt, in a sense, to become the final victim.

At the end of the movie, John Doe has "won" despite being dead. His plan all along was for Brad Pitt to shoot him.

I dont know the english word. But what is it called when you made somebody(even indirect and with no bad thoughts) doing something bad. I have to see the movie again for clear answer.

Well that's exactly it. The glutton died through his own gluttony, sloth through his own inability to leave his bed, etc. How is Patrow taking the dive for Spacey's envy? Shouldn't spacey be dying due to his own envy. Paltrow shouldn't have reall ybeen part of the death list because she didn't exhibit any of the seven sins. Thats why it doesn't work with the full theme of death by one's own sins, not the sins of others. And Spacey then proceeds to die of wrath, which was not his own sin, but someone else's (yet again) and Pitt doesn't even die, though he was the only one who exhibited the final sin. Though he was jailed, but still not the same thing either.

Did the prostitute die because of her own lust, or the lust of those who paid for her? I would seriously have to watch se7en again, since it's been years since I've seen it.

Well, if John Doe's sin is "envy", you could say that he dies through his envy since the one he envied (Pitt) kills him.

As already mentioned, Pitt therefore is "wrath". Sure, he doesn't die, but he has lost his family, his job, he's put to jail etc. Plus, remember what John Doe tells Pitt in the car, while they are driving to the desert. Pitt tells him, that his deeds basically mean shit and that they will be forgotten after a week. John Doe however seems to be pretty sure that his deeds will be remembered by certain persons forever, and in the end we know, that he was talking about Pitt, who will, for sure, remember all of this for the rest of his life. It's similar to the well-known situation when a killer or a gang totally wipe out some place and leave one single person as a witness of what has been done there ("tell everyone about what has happened here.."). You know what I'm talking about..

As for Pitt's wife, she isn't a person on John Doe's death list because she hasn't sinned. When he kills her, he's not fulfilling his "mission", which it to avenge sins, but at that time, he's just a sinner himself (envy).

Hope that makes sense.

Edit: Oh, and now that I think about it.. since Pitt's sin is "wrath", he also has to be punished through wrath, right? Well, his wrath drives him to shoot John Doe. At the moment he pulls the trigger, his fate is sealed, he will be put to jail and whatnot. Therefore not only his sin is wrath, but it is also his wrath that finally ruins him. Unlike the other victims, his own sin doesn't kill him (as explained above), but it triggers the punishment that he will have to endure from now on.

Where does it say that the person commiting the sin has to be the one to die?

His plan all along was simply to create a legacy that would live on, a mesage that would make him a martyr of sorts and allow his religious mesasage to be broadcast. There had to be seven MURDERS for the 7 sins.

Exactly ... the beauty of seven was that the person commiting the sin had to kill themselves ... He made the man with Lust kill the woman ... he made the Glutton Eat themselves to death ... he made Pitt kill him .... and He killed Paltrow

John Doe does explain it all at the end.

Paltrow is killed by Doe not because she is a sinner, but because it will lead to Doe fulfilling his mission of killing the sinner, and the only way to get someone to kill him for his sin (which is envy) is to get Pitt really angry, and Doe's plan works.

That's a very good explanation Mr. McMurphy.

Isn't she killed bc she committed a sin by not telling Pitt about the baby??

Storm, which sin would that be though? There isn't one for deceit.

I also had trouble by the way, with the Lust death because it did not truly penalize the lustful but the worker who induced it. What they forgot about that is worker that it wasn't an optional revelry in the sin as in comparison to the original glutton who really was disgustingly heavy (and we're going to assume it wasn't for genetic reasons) and brought it upon himself.

Guybrush, I see what you mean, that John Doe's sin is envy, and so Paltrow is just an accessory crime to his envy. I somehow didn't feel like it was too bright a move to incorporate accessory crimes in a narrative that was supposed to be strictly about the sins, but I see that you are saying Doe created his envious sin trespass by trying to get at Paltrow because he was envious of Pitt. That makes sense, it just feels a bit jumbled. It might actually be smarter than the first three or four sins that were so direct. The fifth is in a world of its own since it does not garner the subtle reading the last two do, but is not a direct sinner death the way the first ones are (and gets the least attention out of almost all of them).

I dont know, as people can tell, I still have mixed sentiments about how successful this movie was. On the other hand, I didn't like Keislowski's Decalogue at all either, so I might just find the sinner dies for his sin bit to be a bit uncreative. I remember Se&en had strong direction and made me pretty edgy the whole time (and squeemish) but I was always confused as to what it was really trying to accomplish with the storyline. I thought it would be the downfall of the cop, and it was, but somewhere in there, the movie lost me a bit.

It made sense to me and will always be a treasured and brilliant film to me.

Pitt's character is not going to jail. It's obvious that they are going to cover that up and it's why Freeman was putting it on the radio that John Doe had the upper hand. They make it pretty clear that they are going to take care of Mills so I never believed he was going to go to jail.

He was in the BACK of the police car...so it is possible.

It's true that we don't know for sure what will happen, but I always felt that the character would not be imprisoned because you have the Police Captain, played by R. Lee Ermey saying, "Well, we'll take care of him," and Somerset replying with "Whatever he needs." That pretty much guarantees to me that they are going to cover that up.

I really can't see Somerset testifying against Mills after all he went through and cops tend to stick together, especially, one would imagine, after something like that. So I totally see him as being off the force, probably messed up for life mentally, but certainly not jailed.

I would actually think the lustful did get punished. Doe didnt just kidnap that guy from the street, he got him from inside the club of sorts. I would think that he is now "punished" for his sin. What the guy did, even if he was forced to do it, is something that will be with him forever. You can clearly see just how disturbed he is when they interrogate him. I dont think that memory is just going to fade away.

Yeh true. You are right.

Only Se7en the sequel, or Fourt14n will tell

yes the prostitute die by lust, the only sin that the movie didn't clearly being shown is pride.

Wasnt pride the movie star?

i don't quite know, but maybe. that's the only part of seven sins i didn't notice. because things happen so fast.

I thought Pride was the laywer...gah, it's been too long..