I agree, Jack's story would have been incredibly stereotypical. In fact, I think Lee kind of relies on the stereotype of gay men and their struggle in order to tell Jack's very fractured story. On the flip side, he's trying to make Ennis layered and his own character. In my interpretation, that's incredibly sloppy. (On top of everything is Jake Gyllenhaal, whom I really, really do not like... so take that to mean what you will )


Yup.


The thing is... the emotion of this movie is to me unavailable, but I don't tend to necessarily sympathize with the aggressor or the one in control. And Ennis, is in control the entire time. He actually never gets to the point where he has to "challenge society" because quite frankly he never gets beyond himself enough for that battle ever to take place. I sympathize with Alma, because she's a victim, if Jack would have had more of a part in the movie I maybe could have felt sad for him and his family.

As it is, all we have of Jack is the first part of the movie, which is really balanced, then it becomes about Ennis all the way through. Yeah, we see the rodeo thing, him trying to pick up a cowboy in a bar, the Thanksgiving scene and the trip to Mexico, but really... aside from maybe the Thanksgiving scene, all of those threads really are just there to support Ennis' lost at the end. Jack's story doesn't go anywhere or make any significant impact. In fact, I think Ennis' failed relationship with Farris is given more attention than the entire marriage between Jack and Anne Hathaway.

There were a couple scenes in there which to me really didn't belong in the movie. Like the Thanksgiving scene (nothing became of that storyline) and the Fourth of July "action" scene.

what was the deal with the July 4th scene?

I call it the "action" scene.

The scene is primarily about Ennis proving to the movie going audience that he is "still a man and can kick ass".

I think it's well acted and everything, but it doesn't really help the movie.

So when the guy in the truck kicked his ass, what did that mean?

Ennis is not trying to prove anything to movie going audiences, IMO, but to himself, and Alma. But Alma in that show with the fireworks clearly rejects that kind of behaviour, so Ennis stands alone again.

The thanksgiving scene has the same theme : Note how Jack´s father in-law says something like "a boy should watch football". It´s about Jack rejecting that, and trying to show his authority. Ironically, he does that by being insulting and "masculine", and doesn´t seem to be pleased about it at all at the end of the scene.

Ennis always resorted to violence in many situations, mainly to vent out his frustration - But in this case, It doesn´t even work. It is the only language he knows, and here, It finally backfires. In this point in the film he has already started his way down, starting with Alma telling him that she knew and ashaming him, and will end with the last confrontation with Jack and what happens after it...

All this is just my take on things, of course.

the 4th of july scene and the truck driver scene both provide physical releases for ennis' internalized anger. simple.

thanksgiving scene: jack changes in the movie. his character becomes accepting of himself. shutting up his father-in-law is just one of the ways jack is now standing up for himself.

lol now i feel bad because I think I was the first person who brought up the fact that you could go as far as to say at least Ennis wasn't really gay and it was just that one person who he falls in love with despite gender. Well...you could and so I understand why some people would say that. However I think there are too many small things, many details that make it hard for me to believe so. The whole alcoholic/depressed/whatever you wanna call it issue, I think it's 90% because of Jack. He says that himself, and you have to remember althugh quiet, reserved, etc there's also some happyness, some kind of hope for Ennis during the first portion of the film that just makes what he turns into that more tragic.

So I've been meaning to write an actual review for a bit...here's my attempt.

So let it be said yes its a love styory between two guys...if you wanna call it gay movie, the gay cowboy movie...fine. Technically it is and I never tried to say otherwise...what I did try to say is that the themes explored in the movie are much more universal than that and yes you most people will like a film better if they can relate to it. Most gay people will instantly connect to the movie, of course, but ff you have ever lost someone you love due to circumstances, whatever they might be, though, I think there's a good chance you will know what the characters are going through. A great film is a great film, and this is one of the best so far this millenium (it just sounds a lot better that way ).

I always think people will like a film better if they can put in the character's shoes..and there's a lot of things you have to understand. Ennis is really fucked up, wether it's because of what he witnessed as a child or something else...but whatever it is it's taken quite a toll on him. In his mind there is no place for what is going on or what he desires...it just could never happen, and you know...he is kinda unfortunately proven right towards the end. He himself says "this kind of thing doesn't happen in Wyoming" or something along the lines..what a more obvious way then explaining his mindset, when that very thing he is talking about is happening, in Wyoming, that very instant.

The movie could have used from some more intimate moments in the film but not every 3 minutes, because that's not the kind of relationship they have and adding a love or makeout session every other scene completely undermne the point of the story, and the way Ennis might be thinking...since you never quite know exactly what he's thinking. It could have used a sex scene when they meet after years of not seeing each other because it would have shown the desire these two have kept inside for so long. That's the one intimate scene I think was missing, not in any other place. It does a good job showing it with the intesity of "the kiss" and the obvious anticipation Ennis had before Jack arrives but it could have done better. By the way, it's Ennis that kisses Jack in this scene, I believe...for those of you saying the entire thing is one-sided. Thee is really no way of denying that Ennis wants the exact same thing Jack does, except Jack believes it is possible...Ennis does not. The film would not be the same without Heath Ledger who captures those moments of eagerness, passion, and heartbreak with perfection.

The entire cast is nearly perfect in fact. I kinda feel Anne Hathaway and Jake Gyllenhaal are underrated here...I guess because they don't have those moments Alma and Ennis do..but they're not the same people. They are SUPPOSED to react differently in different situations. And they might not be as complex as Alma and Jack but what they are the two actors do a great job of portraying. I'd argue that my own comment about Lureen not being complex though. Like Ennis you never quite know what she's thinking..but you know she has to have an idea throughout the movie and that is only coomfirmed in her perfect, bitterly poignant final scene. I do wish we would have seen more of her character but with what she has Hathaway does a flawless job and I think is equally worthy of an Academy Award nomination as Williams.

The movie is not quite flawless, but at least for me it is unforgettable because like the best films made it writes it's characters into your mind so that they remain there long after the movie is over. And although the themes explored are universal there's also no question that Lee is trying to bring more compassion and understanding with the film. It succeeds, and because of that it is easier to forgive its flaws because you know an even slightly more explicit film would have never done well in the mainstream which defeats the whole purpose. You have to take small steps, and this is quite a huge step in the right direction and will no doubt pave the way for other films in the future. It could have been a tearjerker with the likes of Titanic...I'm glad it wasn't. What this film is instead is honest and that's more valuable to me...in the end the emotional impact is not any less because of it regardless. I kinda hated Lee's The Wedding banquet because I didn't feel he was honest in switiching to serious mode in that film, he fixes that here. An unforgettable, groundbrreaking, slightly flawed masterpiece.

A-

After reading Rod's comments above, which I won't quote because i hate when people quote a long post I have two things to say.


1. I agree Rod, Ennis is fucked up, he seems to lack the ability to really connect to a person and its not until jack vists him 4 years after Brokeback that I really felt we see him feel anything. After there first encounter I wans;t sure what to make of how Ennis felt, Jack was the iniator and Ennis showed rage more then anything, yet he did spend his nights with Jack, but in seeing Jack that irrestible passion overcomes him, and that scene when the kiss and Alma sees them it was brought me into the film emotionally. Ennis is almost childlike in his emotions in that he feels underdeveloped, he not even smart neough to pull Jack out of eyesight of his front doorway. I felt his relationship with Alma wa shim trying to make aa family seeing as his arents died and his siblings had no room for him, I don't think he ever really cared about anyoen ubt Jack because he never let himself. He kept his wife and kids at a distance, their presence filled a role of a family but if you let someone close then if somehting happens to them or they leave it hurts. Ennis never intended to get close to Jack, but he feels comfortbale aorund Jack in way he is with no else eles, he says whole paragraphs to Jack. I know Ennis' emotinal breakdown seems to come out of nowhere, but I don;t think it does...we seen him react very strongly before, only then it was rage. In the end of the film, its just the situation is different and the one person he can talk to, he can connect with is gone and their is the a proof of their realtionship in front of him, all of it, the smeel of each other, the love, but alo the struggles and difficulties.

2. About the ending, i thought it was very clever because their is an openendness to it, did that scene we see of jack been beaten really happen, of is that Ennis imagining what happened based on what he saw in his youth? Yes, Jack's relationship with the local racnher certainly made the chances of aomeone discovering his secret greater, but it was interesting, listening to Hathaway's words with that scene.

Was the film, perfect no, but like other iflms i saw from 2005 (like King Kong), I didn;t mind the flaws because I cared about what happened.

A very well-made movie with great performances. I felt the pacing was off just a little, but it didn't hurt the overall film.

A/Maybe A-

Yeah I found out that the whole Jack-getting-beaten-scene is one hot topic. Did it really happen? Is it in Ennis' mind because of what he had witnessed as a child?

It's still a big question to me.

I posted earlier in the topic, but because the film sometimes took Jack's perspective on matters I have no doubt that that was what *actually* happened to Jack. If the entire movie would have been from Ennis' perspective then I would be questioning whether or not that was "real".

I actually think that scene would have been a little better if the audience kind of had to figure it out a little more and wasn't lead on by the flash to Jack getting beaten.

As it is, it takes away from Hathaway's performance in that section of the film, which is one of the better bits of acting in the picture.

I suppose we can all interpret things our own way, but I'm pretty sure that it was just Ennis' imagination. They would have no doubt discovered if he had been beaten to death by an autopsy or just looking at his body for bruises.

I think Laureen's rehearsed, detached, and cold delivery of Jack's fate points that she is hiding what really happened.

But by showing it, and clarifing it, it is making a statement on the general nature of the treatment and dehumanization of homosexuals.

Very similar to lynchings, only decades earlier.

I agree. And Roo, that was brilliant on Hathaway's part, but I saw the juxaposition of his death and her tired, deadened response to only heighten how well she did. I think she's being sorely overlooked for her performance in this film. But I do see your point that she delivered her lines well enough that people should have realized there was "more" to them.

I think the visual includion was dramatic emphasis, and a bit of acknoweldgement of Sheppard's case, maybe?

Well they didn't really clarify it did they? I mean, the very fact that Ennis was imagining that shows just how deeply rooted that general nature was/is in people's thoughts and behaviour. It doesn't have to actually happen for a statement to be made.

Yeah, I dunno. It's just where I differ from Lee. It's not a "bad" decision, it's just an easy decision.

I think Hathaway could have carried that entire scene without the flashback, she was *that* good in that moment. If you add that to Heath's flashback from when he was a kid, that should have been enough for any intelligent audience to put it together.

But because Lee DID choose to show it, I think it's meant to be that it did in fact happen.


That's the part I disagree with. I don't think it was Ennis' imagination, it's not "fact".

This is similar to the end of Munich during the sex scene. During the sex scene, Bana's character is not making up what happened to the atheletes, he his reflecting on events that actually took place.

Never in the course of Brokeback Mountain was Ennis found fantasizing or speculating on details about Jack. I find it odd to introduce that concept to the audience at an important moment.

Of course there was "more" to them. What we saw was a woman turned cold by an unfullfilling marriage. With her husband gone, it's all the more clear that she has nothing, and her deadened response illustrated that. I don't think it had anything to do with how he died.

I think Hathaway's character is much more layered than that. Maybe if we had more time to spend on Jack's story it could have been fleshed out. It's clear that Jack was as much a trophy husband as she was a trophy wife.

Her reaction could have been one of public humiliation. In fact, I'm more likely to think that way. Her response was more about how he died and why he died than the fact that he WAS dead. IMO.

You're right, I'm sorry. I'm just used to writting "the fact that" when explaining things.

Anyway, I just thought the flashback was the director's way of showing us what it's like under Ennis' skin. What it's like to live under that paranoia and the psychological confines that ended up crushing the relationship.

Maybe. Do you think Ennis was paranoid?

Personally, I don't think he ever could reach beyond his own personal drama long enough to be worried about the outside world.

Ennis struck me as very cause and effect. He didn't worry about the relationship with Jack because he always kept it in check. Jack didn't though. Jack was much more of a player.

I think it did. I tend to agree with andaroo on this one. It was more about how he died, and how she had this well practiced cover-up about a wheel accident. You can tell she was tired and annoyed and jaded while delivering it. She wasn't cold, she just couldn't come right out and say "My husband died for being gay." But he was also not a big enough part of her life by that point that she was completely in tears and ruined either. Unlike when Alma "lost" Ennis.

Eh, I don't think Jack and Laureen's story needed all that much more fleshing out. The fact that it was a bit more open-ended in interpretation is exactly what made it the more fascinating story of the two couples,' and is one of the reason's we can talk about it so much after having watched the film. Unlike Alma, who we can clearly define as being hurt in the tears-and-devastation way, and finally moving on with her life. She still had a faith in marriage (we see her getting remarried) that I don't think Laureen does. I see Laureen pretty much not caring for marriage or dating by the end of this film.

Yeah, I did think that the way she was explaining the death sounded a bit rehersed.

Although, the way she was talking about him, saying things like "oh, God knows what Jack was doing out there...no one ever knows what goes on inside that man's head" sort of hinted at a resentment she might have harboured against him. Maybe she regrets getting married to someone so emotionally distant? And now that he's dead it just all seems to have gone to waste? To me, that's what the scene was about.

But it's the outside world that's causing the conflict. When Lee showed us the childhood flashback, it became so clear that those values had a deep influence on his subjectivity and how he filters outside information. I'm not saying that trying to keep this secret hidden from his wife wasn't taxing, just that the source of his turmoil came from how his actions (being gay) conflicted with those values. Classic cognitive dissonance.