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David
Pure Phase
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:33 am Posts: 34865 Location: Maryland
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 The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
 I found this to be an interesting read, so I figured I would share it. Quote: A somewhat surprising piece in The New York Times this week reported that the French dual-language program in New York's public school system "is booming," the third-largest such program in the city, after Spanish and Chinese. That commitment is a beautiful thing—for children of Francophone immigrants. But for we natives, the idea that kids need to pick up French is now antique.
Make no mistake: For immigrant kids from anywhere, bilingual education is invaluable. But the idea that American-born children need to learn French has become more reflex than action, like classical music played at the wedding of people who live to modern pop. French in educated America is now a class marker, originating from that distant day when French was Europe’s international language. Fewer Europeans spoke English then, which made French actually useful—at least for Americans who could afford international travel. Those same Americans were also still suffering from an inferiority complex to Europe’s “sophistication.”
Enter the idea that a language that began as a mere peasant dialect of Latin is a language of precision, savoir-faire, and romance: Molière, Voltaire, Pepe Le Pew. Naturally, then, our little ones must even now know some French to qualify as what used to be called "people of quality."
But the era of Henry James is long past. When I was a teenaged language nerd in the seventies and eighties, it was the tail end of a time when kids of my bent knew French first and foremost, and then likely dabbled in other Romance languages, plus some German and maybe a dash of Russian. Grand old pop-linguist authors like Mario Pei could write about what they termed the “languages of the world” in books where European languages took up a good half of the space.
After all, between the twenties and the Immigration Act of 1965, immigration to America was lower than it had ever been. Betty Draper and Lucy Ricardo likely never knew a Chinese person in any real way; to them, immigrants were Italians running restaurants. But as Fiddler on the Roof’s Tevye had it, “It’s a new world, Golde.” Somewhere in the nineties, I noticed when teaching linguistics classes that Spanish had overtaken French, and that students were more likely to have studied Japanese, Chinese or Arabic than German or Russian. These are children of the post–Immigration Act era, either by birth or just experience.
What, then, will be a new marker of linguistic classiness? One could be to seek languages for actual use rather than as a fashion statement—i.e. to be more like Europeans, where English has become the international language. One learns French to communicate with … who, exactly? Some will yearn to read Sartre and Molière; more power to them. But what about languages like Spanish and Chinese, which are useful to learn because we encounter them in everyday life? I have seen medical professionals just miss getting plum jobs in New York because a competitor happened to speak Spanish, and Chinese will be increasingly important in the business world. Arabic skills, meanwhile, are achingly needed on the geopolitical scene. It’s swell that knowing French allows you to ignore subtitles in the occasional art house film, but unclear why this would be considered a priority of childrearing.
And especially with Chinese, beginning to learn the language at 18, in a freshman course, is too late. Someone with a few years of Spanish can often communicate on at least the basic level of Chris Farley’s Matt Foley on SNL, but that’s much less likely with Chinese. You have to speak each syllable on one of four tones—bi can mean compare, nose, than or force depending on the tone. That’s easiest for tots with maximally plastic brains and minimal self-consciousness; later, for many, it is simply impossible. Plus, you have to master a few thousand symbols, most of which resemble nothing in particular except one another, in order to even be able to read a newspaper headline or a children’s book. Many adults gamely hoping to learn a little Chinese are defeated by the demands of the characters alone. Kids have more time and less else to focus on, and can learn the symbols more as Chinese kids do.
What, then, is the benefit of kids internalizing Comment allez-vous? rather than ¿Como estas?, Nǐ hǎo?, or even Hindi’s Ap kaise hai? All I know is that if my two-year-old turns out to be the language nerd I was, I will counsel her to think of French as a distinctly low priority. I’m trying to learn some Chinese lately. As I laboriously stuff the characters into my head with flash cards and watch natives sweetly wincing as I mangle the tones, I only wish that even as far back as the Watergate era they had been teaching me Chinese instead of the likes of pomme de terre and je m’appelle. Hélas. http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1164 ... -pointlessWho here studied French in high school or college?
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Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:31 pm |
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Dr. Lecter
You must have big rats
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:28 pm Posts: 92093 Location: Bonn, Germany
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
I did, four years. But with my girlfriend being French, I keep regretting that I didn't pay een more attention...
_________________The greatest thing on earth is to love and to be loved in return!
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Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:39 pm |
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David
Pure Phase
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:33 am Posts: 34865 Location: Maryland
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
My high school did not even offer Chinese.
_________________   1. The Lost City of Z - 2. A Cure for Wellness - 3. Phantom Thread - 4. T2 Trainspotting - 5. Detroit - 6. Good Time - 7. The Beguiled - 8. The Florida Project - 9. Logan and 10. Molly's Game
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Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:43 pm |
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Dr. Lecter
You must have big rats
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:28 pm Posts: 92093 Location: Bonn, Germany
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
I think 99% of high schools here don't offer Chinese. I don't even know about that 1%, I didn't want to be absolute.
Apart from English, the most frequently-offered language is French, followed by Latin and Spanish and then, with some distance, Italian and Russian.
_________________The greatest thing on earth is to love and to be loved in return!
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Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:50 pm |
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nghtvsn
Extraordinary
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:13 pm Posts: 11016 Location: Warren Theatre Oklahoma
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
When I was in school it was German / Spanish / french in jr high. Latin was a new option in high school.
I wish I did french in high school but instead I took German and Spanish. Boo
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Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:15 pm |
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David
Pure Phase
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:33 am Posts: 34865 Location: Maryland
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
The article did not convince nghtvsn, lol.
_________________   1. The Lost City of Z - 2. A Cure for Wellness - 3. Phantom Thread - 4. T2 Trainspotting - 5. Detroit - 6. Good Time - 7. The Beguiled - 8. The Florida Project - 9. Logan and 10. Molly's Game
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Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:16 pm |
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Algren
now we know
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:31 pm Posts: 68348
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
My secondary school offered French and German only.
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Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:38 pm |
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Libs
Sbil
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:38 pm Posts: 48678 Location: Arlington, VA
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
I took a year of high school French. lol
I studied Latin for three years in high school and Spanish for three in college.
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Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:57 pm |
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Algren
now we know
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:31 pm Posts: 68348
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
I did French for 2 or 3 years until we had to choose what our majors were, which I chose German because I hated French. Then I did German for 2 years and loved it. It is easy to learn for English-speakers.
That's where my language learning stopped until privately seeking tutorials in Mandarin whilst at university. It also helped that I visited China a few times to practice.
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:31 am |
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BJ
Killing With Kindness
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:57 pm Posts: 25035 Location: Anchorage,Alaska
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
Algren wrote: I did French for 2 or 3 years until we had to choose what our majors were, which I chose German because I hated French. Then I did German for 2 years and loved it. It is easy to learn for English-speakers.
That's where my language learning stopped until privately seeking tutorials in Mandarin whilst at university. It also helped that I visited China a few times to practice. really kewl yo, of all the languages the two I want to learn most are German and One of the Chinese dialects.
_________________The Force Awakens
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:56 am |
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Algren
now we know
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:31 pm Posts: 68348
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
BJ wrote: Algren wrote: I did French for 2 or 3 years until we had to choose what our majors were, which I chose German because I hated French. Then I did German for 2 years and loved it. It is easy to learn for English-speakers.
That's where my language learning stopped until privately seeking tutorials in Mandarin whilst at university. It also helped that I visited China a few times to practice. really kewl yo, of all the languages the two I want to learn most are German and One of the Chinese dialects. Well, Cantonese is pretty useless. Don't learn that. Only Chinese people in Hong Kong know that (and some in the southern Chinese province, Guangdong). Learn Putonghua (this is the name for the official Mandarin dialect). There are tons of local dialects, but everyone understands Putonghua.
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:41 am |
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kypade
Kypade
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:53 pm Posts: 7908
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
I think they only had French and Spanish in my high school. maybe German. probably German, but I didn't know anyone who studied it if so.
I studied Spanish through ap 1, which was like, five years I guess, I think i started in eighth grade. and then Spanish one and two in college.
but since all American teachers suck at their job, I never really had to /learn/ the language. and I haven't had any real reason to practice for the past six or whatever years. I can read/ translate it pretty well, and understand it alright and speak it pretty basically...Im sure I would pick it up again really quickly if I ever were to move to a country where thats what was spoken. but i definitely don't feel like I know the language anywhere close to as well as one should after six or so years of study.
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:55 am |
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Algren
now we know
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:31 pm Posts: 68348
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
Spanish sounds awesome. When I say some Spanish words, I feel awesome.
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:19 am |
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Price
Gamaur's sex slave
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:15 pm Posts: 8889 Location: Los Pollos Hermanos
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
Je ne comprends pas.
_________________
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:11 am |
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Chippy
KJ's Leading Pundit
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:45 pm Posts: 63026 Location: Tonight... YOU!
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
I took two years of Spanish. I'm not a huge fan, but I can understand some of it still. I probably would've taken Latin over it if I did it again.
When I was in Romania for 2 weeks, I picked up a little bit.
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:53 am |
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Algren
now we know
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:31 pm Posts: 68348
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
I wouldn't depend on technology too much.
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:19 pm |
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Corpse
Don't Dream It, Be It
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:45 pm Posts: 37162 Location: The Graveyard
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
I absolutely love leaning a foreign language and ancient writing systems. I know a lot of Anglo-Saxon, Enochian, Phoenician, and obscure stuff like Theban. In English, Creative Writing, Public Speaking courses, etc. I'd often translate my work using these when possible.
I studied 3 years of Spanish, 1 year of German, and 1 year of French in school. But I've forgotten a great deal of each without being engrossed by them on a regular basis. Reading them still comes fairly easy, though. And I began teaching myself Japanese 7/8 years ago through every means available and keep up on it with daily routines, largely thanks to the box-office actually since I get to interact with them.
As for the article... learning a second language, French or otherwise, is something everyone should consider if given the opportunity. Even if the knowledge isn't particularly helpful for a job or career, traveling, etc. it's still a great learning experience.
I feel like linguistics is being lost among the younger generations.
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Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:44 pm |
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trixster
loyalfromlondon
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:31 pm Posts: 19697 Location: ville-marie
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
je parle français mal
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Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:36 pm |
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FILMO
The Original
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:19 am Posts: 9808 Location: Suisse
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
I had 9.5 years of french in school. I had to because its obligatory here in Switzerland because its a country language. I can read and understand most stuff but when I have to talk or write I really have my time to get the words together. Writing grammar is shit like nothing
Conclusion. Fucking waste of 9.5 years. The persons of charge should be sent to Den Haag.
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Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:58 pm |
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Price
Gamaur's sex slave
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:15 pm Posts: 8889 Location: Los Pollos Hermanos
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 Re: The importance of Americans learning French (or not)
Vous êtes toutes des salopes.
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Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:11 am |
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