No, not really. They are part of the basis. The Torah is the basis of Judaism. The Gospels are the basis of Christianity. If you want to incorporate the morality of Judaism into Christianity, you must approach the Hebrew Bible via the Gospels. But, the Gospels do it for you anyways, in many ways.

God bless Atheism! *lame*

---The Commandments are used in the Christian faith as a way to live life....but the Commandments are in the Old Testament, in which the Jews follow..and from what I know, they follow this rule..

The Christian faith, use the cross, because, after all, it symbolizes Christ...get it? Christ--Christian? HAHA! Also, as Catholics, I think the commandments were simple tweaked a little bit to fit our own needs....

Ok, IM finished. I dont feel like debating/ Im not even a good debator...

but yeaa...just wanted to get my point across.

I know why they use the cross. I'm just saying that doing so violates the 4th Commandment. So if Christians can't follow the 10 Commandments then why try to force them on everyone else?



If you define "tweaking" as completely ignoring the ones you don't choose to follow then sure. Although in fairness to Christians, almost everyone does that with every religion.



Which seems to be that you have no problem using the law to force your religion on everyone else and that it would be good for the rest of us just to follow your religious rules.

That's the whole problem.

Ok my position on this is that i could care less if there already there. Leave Them be but if they're just starting to build a statue of the 10 commandments then you don't do that. I don't get why people are arguing about the commandment of "you shall have no other god before me". What are the top 3 biggest religions in America? Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. How do they all relate. THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME GOD. Atheists, Buddhists and Hindus make up a small fraction of what people are in this country. It seems logical to leave that commandment alone and stop debating about it. What makes Judaism is that they are waiting for the prophet. What Christianity is belief that Jesus is son of god. What Islam is is that Muhammad is the prophet of Islam. ( I think) But these 3 religions all have the same god, allah, yahweh. All the same god.

**quietly steps out after coasterman's comments ... awaits the eruption of comments**

Wow you must have put alot of research and time into that post...very well described coasterman

Previously on The Great KJ Debate:

I'm right, you're wrong. No you're not, I'm right, and here's why! Those reasons suck, you're wrong, and here's why I am right and will always be right. Get outta here with that nonsense, you're reasoning is invalid, here's why! What?! You callin' my reasons dumb? Your reasons are dumb, and here's why.

Wait, wait -- so because the majority of the people believe in the same god, it's OK? Those of us who don't should just suck it up?

Exactly where in the Constitution is that?

I'll tell you where -- nowhere. However, I can easily point to a part of the constitution that says that government shall not establish a religion. In fact, it's so important that the founding fathers placed it first.

All the "it doesn't bother me" arguments are kind of meaningless when the plain words of the Constitution are right in front of you.

Ironically, conservatives would never stand for this kind of "strict construction" of the Constitution. They are completely against "judicial activism" where a judge reads more into the Constitution than what is in the plain meaning -- unless of course they agree with it.

To me, I couldn't care less if it stays there. They aren't destroying the Commandments or anything, and no one really would read it on the wall in a court. Then again, it could also just stay there for historical purposes, because the Constitution was sort of loosely based on it.

There are other ways to lead people to God than just having a sign there. You have to lead people to God by showing them how it's changed their own life.

Good grief! First "our laws are based on it" and now "the Constitution is based on it."

Really? Where in the 10 Commandments does it talk about separation of powers? Freedom of speech? The electoral college? Heck, even democracy in the abstract?

Hey, I said very loosely. :wink:

How many times do we have to repeat this? The Constitution is in NO WAY based on the 10 Commandments, not even loosely. In fact, the First Amendment to the Constitution is a direct contradiction to the 1st Commandment. None of the Commandments have even a rough correlation anywhere in the Constitution. And only three of them have any parallel in our legal system.

So for historical purposes, the 10 Commandments do not belong in the court house. For Constitutional reasons, they do not belong. In short, they do not belong.

I know a lot of people here "don't care" or couldn't "care less" about their Constitutional rights, but I'm thankful that there are at least a few people who do.

OK fine.... so it's not even loosely based on the Ten Commandments. Maybe just a small particle of it is. :wink:

Depending on the purpose.

If the purpose is to have the ten commandments as simply "a monument", along with a whole bunch of other crap, like Themis (god forbid anyone tries to argue that the constitution is based on the Greek mythology) for instance, on public display - then why not?

If the purpose is to show the people that those are the values that are being promoted by the court (as was the case with the Alabama monument) - then absolutely not.

Psst... it's not a good idea to have an opposing opinion. :-$

The Constitution is based on the concept of "natural rights". It is argued that "natural rights" concept goes directly against any religion, since it derives authority from the human beings themselves and not from a god.

Well, yes, that is what the court has ruled in the past. A mural showing great lawgivers that includes Moses is certainly acceptable. Placing the 10 Commandments in a public space all by itself is not.

Yeah, that's why it's hard for me to answer the poll question.

I don't know the exact details of the two cases in the Supreme Court, so it's hard for me to even answer about those two.

But I agree with you and Megamoze that anyone who's arguing that the Constitution is based on the 10 Commandments is either misguided or misleading people on purpose.

NO! [-X

If we do it, it'd be like Salem trials all over again; but either there'd be no witches theory or death sentences for innocent people.

No offense against court, religion, or anything; but does adapting Ten Commandments into court solve anything?

The Constitution is a document that limits the power of government. Anything that is not spelled out in the constitution, is therefore not a right of the government. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that government should spend taxpayers money to fund the arts. Thus, they should quit spending money on artistic endeavors i.e; the 10 commandments mural.

That being said, I would leave the 10 commandments mural up in the SC due to the fact that it would be cheaper than tearing it down.

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say the govt should fund the army either. I take it then that you think the govt needs to stop spending money on our military.

The Constitution doesn't say the govt should NOT spend money on the arts. It DOES however specifically forbid the endorsement of religion by the govt. And that's why the govt shouldn't be displaying the 10 Commandments, whether it's funded by taxpayers or not.

Why don't you check out Article 1 Sec 8 of the Constitution. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States

Oops, you're right.

But it still doesn't say the govt CAN'T fund the arts. It does however say that the govt should provide for the general Welfare of the U.S. That could mean a lot of things.

hans

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:03 am

Coasterman2002 wrote:
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. How do they all relate. THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME GOD. Atheists, Buddhists and Hindus make up a small fraction of what people are in this country. It seems logical to leave that commandment alone and stop debating about it. What makes Judaism is that they are waiting for the prophet. What Christianity is belief that Jesus is son of god. What Islam is is that Muhammad is the prophet of Islam. ( I think) But these 3 religions all have the same god, allah, yahweh. All the same god.



Mr. X

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:13 pm

Wait a minute... this was never a debate thread all along!! Then again, no one said it was a debate thread. Then again, I just soiled myself.

...

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KidRock69x

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:35 pm

hans wrote:
Coasterman2002 wrote:
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. How do they all relate. THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME GOD. Atheists, Buddhists and Hindus make up a small fraction of what people are in this country. It seems logical to leave that commandment alone and stop debating about it. What makes Judaism is that they are waiting for the prophet. What Christianity is belief that Jesus is son of god. What Islam is is that Muhammad is the prophet of Islam. ( I think) But these 3 religions all have the same god, allah, yahweh. All the same god.





Instead of using the , why don't you write out your disagreements. Lovemerox did the same sort of thing without disputing anything Coasterman said.





Coasterman2002

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Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:58 pm

KidRock69x wrote:
hans wrote:
Coasterman2002 wrote:
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. How do they all relate. THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME GOD. Atheists, Buddhists and Hindus make up a small fraction of what people are in this country. It seems logical to leave that commandment alone and stop debating about it. What makes Judaism is that they are waiting for the prophet. What Christianity is belief that Jesus is son of god. What Islam is is that Muhammad is the prophet of Islam. ( I think) But these 3 religions all have the same god, allah, yahweh. All the same god.





Instead of using the , why don't you write out your disagreements. Lovemerox did the same sort of thing without disputing anything Coasterman said.



ok i'm appreciative of Mike posting his thoughts against what i said instead of some people who just have no class and love to roll eyes and judge. That is NOT my defense of why they should or should not be kept. I said that because people were attacking one of the commandments about how there shall not be any other gods so i backed it up. So how about the rest of you "eye rollers" back up your eye rolling.

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lovemerox

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:01 pm

KidRock69x wrote:
hans wrote:
Coasterman2002 wrote:
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. How do they all relate. THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME GOD. Atheists, Buddhists and Hindus make up a small fraction of what people are in this country. It seems logical to leave that commandment alone and stop debating about it. What makes Judaism is that they are waiting for the prophet. What Christianity is belief that Jesus is son of god. What Islam is is that Muhammad is the prophet of Islam. ( I think) But these 3 religions all have the same god, allah, yahweh. All the same god.





Instead of using the , why don't you write out your disagreements. Lovemerox did the same sort of thing without disputing anything Coasterman said.




I did so...his entire post was uninformed....I made that very clear.....

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hans

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:10 pm

KidRock69x wrote:
hans wrote:
Coasterman2002 wrote:
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. How do they all relate. THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME GOD. Atheists, Buddhists and Hindus make up a small fraction of what people are in this country. It seems logical to leave that commandment alone and stop debating about it. What makes Judaism is that they are waiting for the prophet. What Christianity is belief that Jesus is son of god. What Islam is is that Muhammad is the prophet of Islam. ( I think) But these 3 religions all have the same god, allah, yahweh. All the same god.





Instead of using the , why don't you write out your disagreements. Lovemerox did the same sort of thing without disputing anything Coasterman said.



Ok. Very sucky comment. If they all equate to the same god, why is there not 1 religion? You are right in some way. . . . there is one god.
. . . . . . . . . . Dont some sects of christians believe in 3 gods? Jesus, god and the holy spirit? Someone correct me please

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Beeblebrox

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:35 pm

Coasterman2002 wrote:
That is NOT my defense of why they should or should not be kept. I said that because people were attacking one of the commandments about how there shall not be any other gods so i backed it up.



Who was attacking the first Commandment? You can believe in the Commandments all you want (although the vast majority of people pick and choose which ones to believe in), but that doesn't mean that they should be displayed in govt buildings.





Erendis

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Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 236

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:58 pm

Mike Ventrella wrote:
However, I can easily point to a part of the constitution that says that government shall not establish a religion.


This is something I'm unsure about. The exact phrase in the Constitution is "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion." By "establishment of religion," I don't think they mean establish as a verb -- as in " to found" or " to start up." I think they mean Congress should not respect the Religious Establishment, where "establishment" is a noun used in same way as in the Scientific Establishment, or Economic Establishment. The key to this is that little "a." There's a big difference between the establishment of religion, and the establishment of a religion.

So making a law which allows (or refusing to make a law to disallow -- are they the same thing?) any religious symbols of any kind in the public buildings is the same as respecting and acknowledging the Religious Establishment.

--

By the way, no way no how you can have the American people do a majority vote on this. Tell me: would all of the high and mighty Christians be clamoring for a majority vote if the majority wasn't Christian?

The Christians are so sure they're right (and that everyone else is wrong) that this doesn't even enter their heads. They feel safe in their majority. But, what if, say, over the next 200 years the country slowly converts to Islam (not impossible). Thenwould the Christians, now a minority, be thankful that the Bill of Rights protects them from a majority vote against them? They better be.





Coasterman2002

Narnia: Lion, Witch, Wardrobe


Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:42 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:
Coasterman2002 wrote:
That is NOT my defense of why they should or should not be kept. I said that because people were attacking one of the commandments about how there shall not be any other gods so i backed it up.



Who was attacking the first Commandment? You can believe in the Commandments all you want (although the vast majority of people pick and choose which ones to believe in), but that doesn't mean that they should be displayed in govt buildings.



No it was Mike Ventrella. I said that if there already there then they should leave them be but if there beginning to make ten commandment statues now then stop making them.

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Coasterman2002

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Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:43 pm

hans wrote:
KidRock69x wrote:
hans wrote:
Coasterman2002 wrote:
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. How do they all relate. THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME GOD. Atheists, Buddhists and Hindus make up a small fraction of what people are in this country. It seems logical to leave that commandment alone and stop debating about it. What makes Judaism is that they are waiting for the prophet. What Christianity is belief that Jesus is son of god. What Islam is is that Muhammad is the prophet of Islam. ( I think) But these 3 religions all have the same god, allah, yahweh. All the same god.





Instead of using the , why don't you write out your disagreements. Lovemerox did the same sort of thing without disputing anything Coasterman said.



Ok. Very sucky comment. If they all equate to the same god, why is there not 1 religion? You are right in some way. . . . there is one god.
. . . . . . . . . . Dont some sects of christians believe in 3 gods? Jesus, god and the holy spirit? Someone correct me please



you're kidding right? Christianity is a monothesistic religion. Why would it have 3 different gods. The Christian religion that is believes in the trinity is the Catholic faith. Yes its 3 gods but all the same person.

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MG Casey

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:49 pm

hans wrote:
. . . . . . . . . . Dont some sects of christians believe in 3 gods? Jesus, god and the holy spirit? Someone correct me please


I wouldn't classify it as that. It's sorta of like they're all 3 the same, but yet different. It's not 3 gods, though.

Jesus = God = The Holy Spirit

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lovemerox

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:51 pm

Coasterman2002 wrote:
Beeblebrox wrote:
Coasterman2002 wrote:
That is NOT my defense of why they should or should not be kept. I said that because people were attacking one of the commandments about how there shall not be any other gods so i backed it up.



Who was attacking the first Commandment? You can believe in the Commandments all you want (although the vast majority of people pick and choose which ones to believe in), but that doesn't mean that they should be displayed in govt buildings.



No it was Mike Ventrella. I said that if there already there then they should leave them be but if there beginning to make ten commandment statues now then stop making them.




But dont you think its unfair to have certain religious favored over others?

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Beeblebrox

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:52 pm

Coasterman2002 wrote:
No it was Mike Ventrella. I said that if there already there then they should leave them be



But your defense of the 1st Commandment doesn't have anything to do with why they should be left up. And I'm not sure how them already being up there is any less of a violation of the Establishment Clause.





bABA

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:52 pm

Lovemerox.

Dont you think its rather idiotic to spend all this tax payer's money to discuss if something should be thrown out of courtrooms that essentially takes no part in making the law and is technically nothing mroe than a decoration piece?

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lovemerox

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:55 pm

bABA wrote:
Lovemerox.

Dont you think its rather idiotic to spend all this tax payer's money to discuss if something should be thrown out of courtrooms that essentially takes no part in making the law and is technically nothing mroe than a decoration piece?




taxpayers monet are spent on MUCH more idiotic things than this....so no

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bABA

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:57 pm

lovemerox wrote:
bABA wrote:
Lovemerox.

Dont you think its rather idiotic to spend all this tax payer's money to discuss if something should be thrown out of courtrooms that essentially takes no part in making the law and is technically nothing mroe than a decoration piece?




taxpayers monet are spent on MUCH more idiotic things than this....so no



So you mean to argue that just because there are more idiotic things out there that we spend money on, we should spend it on this too?

well, if thats the argument lovemerox, let me throw this at you. There are more important issues out there than taking a plaque off the wall listing the 10 commandments. Hell, there are more important ways in which we can create this equal representation in the US than removing a bunch of plaques that no one really cares about ... they aren't enforcing themselves on you, they aren't doing anything .. their only fault being that theyre there .. thats it.

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Coasterman2002

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:58 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:
Coasterman2002 wrote:
No it was Mike Ventrella. I said that if there already there then they should leave them be



But your defense of the 1st Commandment doesn't have anything to do with why they should be left up. And I'm not sure how them already being up there is any less of a violation of the Establishment Clause.



I know that but what i was trying to explain is that people were attacking the first commandment and i was just defending it. What i said about the first commandment has nothing to do whether they should tkae down the statues or leave them up.

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lovemerox

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:59 pm

I dont think this is an idiotic issue though...IM sorta on the fence about it...Im just saying if we are going to allow the ten C, the we should allow buddists, muslisms,.....etc to have things in gov buildings as well...

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Beeblebrox

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:02 pm

Coasterman2002 wrote:
I know that but what i was trying to explain is that people were attacking the first commandment and i was just defending it. What i said about the first commandment has nothing to do whether they should tkae down the statues or leave them up.



Then could you please elaborate on why you think they should be left up, given that you think putting any more up is somehow wrong?





bABA

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:02 pm

lovemerox wrote:
I dont think this is an idiotic issue though...IM sorta on the fence about it...Im just saying if we are going to allow the ten C, the we should allow buddists, muslisms,.....etc to have things in gov buildings as well...



You obviously didn't read what i said ... I answered that there are more important issues out there by your argument. There are also much much more important ways .... hell let me just copy paste what i said;

well, if thats the argument lovemerox, let me throw this at you. There are more important issues out there than taking a plaque off the wall listing the 10 commandments. Hell, there are more important ways in which we can create this equal representation in the US than removing a bunch of plaques that no one really cares about ... they aren't enforcing themselves on you, they aren't doing anything .. their only fault being that theyre there .. thats it.

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lovemerox

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:05 pm

bABA wrote:
lovemerox wrote:
I dont think this is an idiotic issue though...IM sorta on the fence about it...Im just saying if we are going to allow the ten C, the we should allow buddists, muslisms,.....etc to have things in gov buildings as well...



You obviously didn't read what i said ... I answered that there are more important issues out there by your argument. There are also much much more important ways .... hell let me just copy paste what i said;

well, if thats the argument lovemerox, let me throw this at you. There are more important issues out there than taking a plaque off the wall listing the 10 commandments. Hell, there are more important ways in which we can create this equal representation in the US than removing a bunch of plaques that no one really cares about ... they aren't enforcing themselves on you, they aren't doing anything .. their only fault being that theyre there .. thats it.




You are right...there are more important issues we should be worrying about(like impeeching our president) but im just arguing the principle of the matter...It ISNT hurting me....your right, Im just trying to take a fair stance to all religions

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Beeblebrox

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:06 pm

bABA wrote:
... they aren't enforcing themselves on you, they aren't doing anything .. their only fault being that theyre there .. thats it.



I disagree. Their being there is a defacto endorsement of religion. The 10 Commandments CLEARLY have a religious connotation and that religious connotation is why they're there at all.

And if it costs taxpayers money to enforce the First Amendment, then it just does. Ashcroft used taxpayer money to cover up the boobs on a statue in a govt building; I think this deserves at least as much attention as that.





bABA

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:12 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:
bABA wrote:
... they aren't enforcing themselves on you, they aren't doing anything .. their only fault being that theyre there .. thats it.



I disagree. Their being there is a defacto endorsement of religion. The 10 Commandments CLEARLY have a religious connotation and that religious connotation is why they're there at all.

And if it costs taxpayers money to enforce the First Amendment, then it just does. Ashcroft used taxpayer money to cover up the boobs on a statue in a govt building; I think this deserves at least as much attention as that.



And i dont see it that way at all. Yes, they have a religious connotation but who the hell cares. They are not enforcing themselves in anyway. It bothers you only because you consider it an issue to begin with. As far as i'm concerned, they're nothing more than decorative pieces of article that have always been there. if you were specifically installing them today, i would say no, but doing it right now .. what the hell .. why do things for the sake of being correct .. its been there for a long time ... i dont see 90% of the population throwing a fit, getting worked up or losing their medical previledges over it. Really .. we gotta ease up on these things ... I dont believe in equal representation for the sake of equal representation.

Ashcroft covering boobs is in no way related to that particular piece of decoration. As already established, religion has no place in actual law so how can a plaque on the wall be of any significance in the matter .. its really nothing more than ashcroft's views. Ashcroft in no way point at the 10 commandments on the wall or whereever and say he covers them "because of that"

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Beeblebrox

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:17 pm

bABA wrote:
And i dont see it that way at all. Yes, they have a religious connotation but who the hell cares.



The founding fathers cared. The Constitution cares.


Quote:
why do things for the sake of being correct ..



Are you serious? An interesting stand to take and one I'm going to note for future reference. So why then even bother saying this:


Quote:
if you were specifically installing them today, i would say no



If it's not offending anyone, and you're not interested in doing things for the sake of being correct, then why be against placing them today or tomorrow or any other day?


Last edited by Beeblebrox on Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total




bABA

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:25 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:
bABA wrote:
And i dont see it that way at all. Yes, they have a religious connotation but who the hell cares.



The founding fathers cared. The Constitution cares.


Quote:
why do things for the sake of being correct ..



Are you serious? An interesting stand to take and one I'm going to note for future reference.



i don't hide it. To me, if somethings always been around (or atleast for a period of time), and it doesn't in anyway effect anyone's life in anyway, it doesn't matter much to me ..... quite like this for example .. well, i find it annoying but i dont wish to really change it around and cause the entire world any trouble.

The term Asian:
That term is pretty much used to classify the oriental community. I'm an asian yet i'm never really included it in when people mention Asian. Go to student unions in many places or hell, even organizations and they'll have a big "asian" in their acronyms. Walk in and I find out i'm not exactly represented inside it. its definetely not getting equal representation here. But hell, its always been like that and I do not even wish to take a stance on it. I'll correct occurances of it. If a new school opens up and I have a say in it, i'll make it my duty to make sure that when they say Asian's they MEAN asians. But anything thats already existing. .. let it be ... it bothers me cause i'm being anal about it. No one really considers me lesser than them in anyway ... its just a term used and nothing more.

Oh and i have news for you. As offensive as this sounds, the founding fathers aren't here any longer and even the constitution is not a real person. We care because we wish to make it a point that everyone must get equal representation in every way or form. Frankly, to me, as i mentioned to lovemerox, you know there are far worse things than a peice of decoration placed in a court room .. misrepresentation that ACTUALLY hurts people. this does nothing but just offends because people choose to be offended.

I guess I should also throw a fit that just the way Italians and Black communities are apecifically catered to in the entertainment industry (by shows being made specifically keeping them in mind), i wanna see equal representation for pakistanis, indians and bangladeshis ....

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bABA

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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:28 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:


If it's not offending anyone, and you're not interested in doing things for the sake of being correct, then why be against placing them today or tomorrow or any other day?



Sorry, i did not catch this part of it. I apologise.

btw, before i continue, this is a very interesting discussion but sadly, all of this will be lost tomorrow so i'm hoping we can keep discussing this and get a chance to read it all before its lost tomorrow.

My argument has and always have been thats its there. its just .. already is. its misrepresentation yes but if something already resides there, then let it be. For me, its an equivalent of me moving into my girlfriend's house and wanting equal representation in what we buy for the place. If she had an annoying pink vase already in the house, i will not throw a fit about having it thrown away. But hell, if we were buying it after i move in, I sure as hell feel i reserve the right to say no.

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Beeblebrox

The Island


Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 166

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:30 pm

bABA wrote:
To me, if somethings always been around (or atleast for a period of time), and it doesn't in anyway effect anyone's life in anyway, it doesn't matter much to me .....



The Constitution doesn't affect your life in any way? Only providing you with civil liberties and freedoms you OBVIOUSLY take for granted.

Good grief, no wonder this administration has been so successful at eroding our civil liberties. People just don't give a shit anymore.


Quote:
I guess I should also throw a fit that just the way Italians and Black communities are apecifically catered to in the entertainment industry (by shows being made specifically keeping them in mind), i wanna see equal representation for pakistanis, indians and bangladeshis ....



There's a BIG difference between a private industry not catering to a specific demographic, and the US Govt endorsing a specific religion. Big, big difference.





lovemerox

Mod


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 4524
Location: Searching for the nearest starbucks!...
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:35 pm

baba lives in canada^^

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Beeblebrox

The Island


Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 166

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:37 pm

bABA wrote:
its misrepresentation yes but if something already resides there, then let it be. For me, its an equivalent of me moving into my girlfriend's house and wanting equal representation in what we buy for the place. If she had an annoying pink vase already in the house, i will not throw a fit about having it thrown away. .



It makes you wonder why we ever got rid of slavery. After all, it was already there. And getting rid of it sure did cause a lot of trouble. Why do things just for the sake of being correct?





Beeblebrox

The Island


Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 166

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:38 pm

lovemerox wrote:
baba lives in canada^^



Our 51st state.





bABA

Site Admin


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 4881

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:38 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:

The Constitution doesn't affect your life in any way? Only providing you with civil liberties and freedoms you OBVIOUSLY take for granted.

Good grief, no wonder this administration has been so successful at eroding our civil liberties. People just don't give a shit anymore.

Actually, the constitution doesn't effect me cause i'm not american : )
But jokes aside, you dont seem to understand what i'm saying. its a piece of freaking decoration. The thing being up there in a courtroom, is it actually deciding whatever case is fought in there? is it passing laws for you? law and religion is seperated to begin with. them 10 commandments do nothing more than just sit there.

And dont give me crap about people dont give a shit anymore. I care about stuff that actually makes a difference. Enforcing me to read the bible at school when i'm a Muslim is what i care about. Forcing me to come to church is what i care about. passing an actual law that states my crimes are punishable "because the bible said so" is what i care about. Telling me that i lost a case because the person sweared to the name of God that he didn't commit a crime is the type of stuff i care about. Because thats the type of representatioon i care about .. where not one religion is actually enforced upon me. A symbolic thing thats always been hanging up there is something i do not care about.

Quote:
I guess I should also throw a fit that just the way Italians and Black communities are apecifically catered to in the entertainment industry (by shows being made specifically keeping them in mind), i wanna see equal representation for pakistanis, indians and bangladeshis ....



There's a BIG difference between a private industry not catering to a specific demographic, and the US Govt endorsing a specific religion. Big, big difference.



private industry??? These industries get sued for not making roles that suit the minorities. There are fines that are placed by governing bodies. You know what, that effects you and me much more than some 10 commandments inside some courtroom.

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bABA

Site Admin


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 4881

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:42 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:
bABA wrote:
its misrepresentation yes but if something already resides there, then let it be. For me, its an equivalent of me moving into my girlfriend's house and wanting equal representation in what we buy for the place. If she had an annoying pink vase already in the house, i will not throw a fit about having it thrown away. .



It makes you wonder why we ever got rid of slavery. After all, it was already there. And getting rid of it sure did cause a lot of trouble. Why do things just for the sake of being correct?



ehem .. are you just arguing with me now for the sake of arguing?? is that question really a serious one left for me to answer.

Heres why... slavery actually DOES effect the person enslaved. Slavery is asking one community to treat another as shit, as second class citizens, taking away the rights of one complete comminty..

is that 10 commandment, even if its there for a long time taking away someone elsee's rights? Is it actually influencing a courtroom to take the christian man's word over mine because i'm Muslim? is it allowing the govt to take a whip and smack me on my back for not doing my share of the hard labor? is it stopping the courts from recognizing my marriage to a Christian girL?

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bABA

Site Admin


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 4881

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:44 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:
lovemerox wrote:
baba lives in canada^^



Our 51st state.



You still in montreal?

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Beeblebrox

The Island


Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 166

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:45 pm

bABA wrote:
But jokes aside, you dont seem to understand what i'm saying. its a piece of freaking decoration.



So if the court decided to hang a giant swastika up, do you think people would just sit back and go, "it's just a piece of decoration. It has nothing to do with how justice is carried out."

Not only is the 10 Commandment plaque not just a decoration, it's not intended to be JUST a decoration. The side defending its placement there KNOWS the religious significance and that's a large part (if not the only part) of the reason they're defending it.


Quote:
Enforcing me to read the bible at school when i'm a Muslim is what i care about.



Why? The Bible has been there longer than you. It's already there, so what's the big deal? Why should they get rid of it just because you're offended by it? After all, you're only offended because you choose to be. Why should they do something just for the sake of being correct?

Isn't that how your argument works?





Krem

Cream of the Crop


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 2244
Location: Philly
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:46 pm

baba, contrary to popular belief, nobody gets sued for "not catering to a minority". There are huge public outcries over such things, but they have no power of law.

The only related thing that can get you sued is not complying with the Civil Rights Act which forbids owners of public spaces (public being defined as a movie theater, a lobby of a building, etc.) to discriminate on the basis of race, gender, ethnicity, etc. It also forbids such discrimination by large employers.

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Beeblebrox

The Island


Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 166

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:48 pm

bABA wrote:
is that 10 commandment, even if its there for a long time taking away someone elsee's rights? Is it actually influencing a courtroom to take the christian man's word over mine because i'm Muslim?



Are you seriously not aware of the pro-Christian bias in almost every facet of American politics and jurisprudence? Didn't we just round up a bunch of Muslims and ship them off to Cuba without pressing any charges or giving them any due process?

The 10 Commandments, while seemingly innocuous, are part of that bias. And the placement of them in court rooms is an establishment and endorsement of religion.





neo_wolf

El Bichote


Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 917
Location: Puerto Rico
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:49 pm

Im glad i dont live in the U.S.

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Beeblebrox

The Island


Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 166

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:49 pm

bABA wrote:
Our 51st state.



You still in montreal?[/quote]

I've actually never been to Montreal. Although I'd love to visit it sometime. I live in Los Angeles, and before that Florida.





Mike Ventrella

King Kong


Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 551
Location: Stroudsburg, PA
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:00 pm

I agree with Beeblebrox/Megamose here, and every time I was about to post a reply, I saw that he had already written it.

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Krem

Cream of the Crop


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 2244
Location: Philly
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:09 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:
bABA wrote:
is that 10 commandment, even if its there for a long time taking away someone elsee's rights? Is it actually influencing a courtroom to take the christian man's word over mine because i'm Muslim?



Are you seriously not aware of the pro-Christian bias in almost every facet of American politics and jurisprudence? Didn't we just round up a bunch of Muslims and ship them off to Cuba without pressing any charges or giving them any due process?



Well that's just a little misleading. A pro-Christian bias might be there, but it had nothing to do with the detainment of prisoners from Afghanistan in Guantanamo Bay.

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bABA

Site Admin


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 4881

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:11 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:
bABA wrote:
Our 51st state.



You still in montreal?



I've actually never been to Montreal. Although I'd love to visit it sometime. I live in Los Angeles, and before that Florida.[/quote]

Ouch .. sorry .. i mistook you for Wolfy. My apologies.

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bABA

Site Admin


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 4881

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:17 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:
bABA wrote:
is that 10 commandment, even if its there for a long time taking away someone elsee's rights? Is it actually influencing a courtroom to take the christian man's word over mine because i'm Muslim?



Are you seriously not aware of the pro-Christian bias in almost every facet of American politics and jurisprudence? Didn't we just round up a bunch of Muslims and ship them off to Cuba without pressing any charges or giving them any due process?

The 10 Commandments, while seemingly innocuous, are part of that bias. And the placement of them in court rooms is an establishment and endorsement of religion.



Sorry, i was away. had a 6 year old to entertain.

You basically wrote down my answer to your own question. You know what. The same money (or forget money if you think its more costly to keep those 10 commandments up). The same "money" (if you choose to say it) and time i would rather spend actually fixing a problem that actually hurts me. The 10 commandments may actually be part of the bias but the judges, lawyers, and the people for providing representation would actually spend a bit more time curing a problem that actually does hurt me, i'd be more happy. the 10 commandments to me are nothing more than just religious statements placed here and there. They're not the thigns hurting me. The other stuff is.

You also mentioned the swastika. For reasons that i hope you understand, i do not wish to answer it because i understand how sensitive people are about those things and my answer will clearly offend them. My entire life has been completely detached from those events, its never ever directly effected me in any shape or manner nor effected the lives of those around to the extent that anyone of them even wishes to make it a part of any argument ... so yea ... the swastikas and stuff do not bother me much in anyway. It does not mean i'm insensitive and dont care ... it just means that you're asking me something that i cannot in anyway relate to.

@krem: Thank you for pointing that out to me. But wasn't there a huge scandal about 3 years ago about the industry being fined for not providing any roles that meet the criteria for certain minority actors and actresses?? The whole quota thing if i believe?

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bABA

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Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 4881

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:24 pm

By the way, i find this conversation excellent and its sad it'll get deleted. Guys, please look at the thread torrino has set up. It shows the new forum location. Please start using that for now as whatever you post over there will be retained. I'm officially changing to that location now.

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Krem

Cream of the Crop


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 2244
Location: Philly
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:24 pm

baba, I've heard about studies about the problem, but never actually heard anything about any fines.

The quota thing you're referring to is the Affirmative Action, but that only applies to companies dealing with the government.

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bABA

Site Admin


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 4881

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:41 pm

Krem wrote:
baba, I've heard about studies about the problem, but never actually heard anything about any fines.

The quota thing you're referring to is the Affirmative Action, but that only applies to companies dealing with the government.



Hmm .. i recall the quota thing related to television .. hmm ... ok .. i might be wrong.

Krem, this discussion isn't going anywhere. come to the new server.

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