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If if if anyone is interested in George Carlin's Two Commandments, download the MP3 file on the upper right part of the screen. It's a 6 minute audio bit by George.

GEORGE CARLIN ON THE 10 COMMANDMENTS
from "Complaints and Grievances" (HBO special)

Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10?

You simply do not need ten. The list of ten commandments was artificially and deliberately inflated to get it up to ten. Here's what happened:

About 5,000 years ago a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to try to figure out how to control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told, so they announced that God had given them some commandments, up on a mountain, when no one was around.

Well let me ask you this- when they were making this shit up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why- because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision! It is clearly a bullshit list. It's a political document artificially inflated to sell better. I will now show you how you can reduce the number of commandments and come up with a list that's a little more workable and logical. I am going to use the Roman Catholic version because those were the ones I was taught as a little boy.

Let's start with the first three:

I AM THE LORD THY GOD THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME

THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN

THOU SHALT KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH

Right off the bat the first three are pure bullshit. Sabbath day? Lord's name? strange gods? Spooky language! Designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious nonsense like this apply to the lives of intelligent civilized humans in the 21st century. So now we're down to 7. Next:

HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER

Obedience, respect for authority. Just another name for controlling people. The truth is that obedience and respect shouldn't be automatic. They should be earned and based on the parent's performance. Some parents deserve respect, but most of them don't, period. You're down to six.

Now in the interest of logic, something religion is very uncomfortable with, we're going to jump around the list a little bit.

THOU SHALT NOT STEAL

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS

Stealing and lying. Well actually, these two both prohibit the same kind of behavior- dishonesty. So you don't really need two you combine them and call the commandment "thou shalt not be dishonest". And suddenly you're down to 5.

And as long as we're combining I have two others that belong together:

THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE

Once again, these two prohibit the same type of behavior. In this case it is marital infidelity. The difference is- coveting takes place in the mind. But I don't think you should outlaw fantasizing about someone else's wife because what is a guy gonna think about when he's waxing his carrot? But, marital infidelity is a good idea so we're gonna keep this one and call it "thou shalt not be unfaithful". And suddenly we're down to four.

But when you think about it, honesty and infidelity are really part of the same overall value so, in truth, you could combine the two honesty commandments with the two fidelity commandments and give them simpler language, positive language instead of negative language and call the whole thing "thou shalt always be honest and faithful" and we're down to 3.

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR"S GOODS

This one is just plain fuckin' stupid. Coveting your neighbor's goods is what keeps the economy going! Your neighbor gets a vibrator that plays "o come o ye faithful", and you want one too! Coveting creates jobs, so leave it alone. You throw out coveting and you're down to 2 now- the big honesty and fidelity commandment and the one we haven't talked about yet:

THOU SHALT NOT KILL

Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Cashmire, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed. So, with all of this in mind, I give you my revised list of the two commandments:

Thou shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.

&

Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you.

Two is all you need; Moses could have carried them down the hill in his fuckin' pocket. I wouldn't mind those folks in Alabama posting them on the courthouse wall, as long as they provided one additional commandment:

Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.

you misunderstand when I say "It doesn't bother me". I dont mean specifically me.

Look dude. heres the thing.
Lets say someone follows the first commandment right? Is his following of the commandments effecting any other person in the world? Is it requiring you to be burdened in anyway whatsoever!?!? Would it require the killing of a man, or anything. This isn't about me supporting them and being okay with them. Remember, I'm Muslim so even if my beliefs are similar, i aint a christian. It doesn't effect me or anyone on this board if Rusty for example decides to follow that law 1. What i WOULD object to would be "Thou shalt force OTHERS to not take God's name in vain". That is something that bothers me not because i'm not okay with it but because that directly effects me. Its asking someone to do something that is not personal.

You mistook what i said.

Well, then, should the government instead give equal time to every religion? There are thousands of them out there, you know, each with their own set of beliefs they would love to see plastered on courthouse walls. By yor logic, as long as no one is offended, it's OK?

what is the supreme court's defense on keeping the 10 commandements?

You obviously missed a post of mine in between and at the end, the whole point of my argument.
My arguments are in light of the fact that theyre already there, have always been there and taking them off is just a sign of people wanting equal representation and no more. its more so a non threatening decoration peice than anything else. Thats why i asked about 3 times in the thread before replying if they were there in the first place or not. I say let them be not because they're offensive but because they've always been there AND they're not offensive. We're taking them off now for the sake of just being politically correct and no more. if they were never there to begin with and this debate was about putting them in, my answer would have been completely different. Do I wish for the important points from the quran to be displayed on the walls of the courtroom cause Christianity made its mark? nope.

My serious take on the subject is this. I'm actually comfortable with a little religion when it is based on tradition and done in an easy going way. In fact I spent most of my upbringing in religious schools and often had to learn relgion in class, and I took it in stride.

But I know my country, I know modern America, and this isn't the innocent desires of a few people to return to tradition. There are a lot of things in America that on the surface seem like they have old roots (like confederate flags being common in the south or religious iconography in public buildings) but they really were part of a wave that came over America in the mid 50s. Despite what the media may tell you, it was the 50s, not the 60s that was the big civil rights era when change really started to happen, and in response there was a backlash in the south with all of a sudden confederate flags and religious stuff appearing all over the place, as if they were trying to ward off demons or something, who knows, there was a lot of fear among poor whites.

I know that was rambling but the shorter version is this. As unfair as it sounds, if a country like Britain, Canada or Australia put religion in a public space, they would find a way to do it in a mild way and it would seem natural and their motives would probably be well meaning. But America just isn't like that, subtlety isn't our style, and the motivations behind this movement are highly suspect.

In my opinion, yes, the Ten Commandments should be put up/kept up.

And before I start, dont forget, the 10 commandments weren't created when Christianity started( 0 ), but a couple thousand years before that by a man named Moses!...I dont know, just go the impression people felt it was a Christian thing, when its more of a "You Believe in God" kinda thing.

Well, this is basically a paraphrasing of my History Teacher's lecture ( She was completely unbiased, and a large amount of the lecture came from the Textbook)

Personally, putting up the 10 commandments would give ode to this country's history. After all, the 10 commandments were the basis of Jeudaism, and Christianity, which both were the first to teach the value of individual worth. Is that not the basis of this country? Individual Worth?

2nd, the 10 commandments were in fact, one the first documents of written law....hmm...first written laws and a court room...connection?

I also feel that a majority of the 10 commandments are simply a way to follow life, and to remind members in the court room, the importance of honesty and good moral.

And lastly, if the court is not telling you to follow the 10 commandments, putting the document up is nothing more then a reminder of this country's history, and the history of law.

Just my opinion. :wink:

And if someone preached the same thing about Muhammed and Islam and tried to get the govt to get you to follow those, you'd say the same thing? Yeah, right.

Second of all, the 10 Commandments aren't simply moral rules that "everyone" should follow. The FIRST Commandment says that you should have no other gods other than THIS one. How on earth are other religions supposed to follow that?

And I take you have NO graven images anywhere in your possession? No crosses. No pictures of Jesus. If so, and if you can't follow the 10 Commandments yourself, why should you want to impose them on everyone else?

Well other than 1 or 2 points in the commandments, its pretty much what Muhammad preached as well : )

Don't make an ass of "u" and me, Beetlebrox. Well, actually it's an ass of you and Eagle. But, that would mean you "assueagle" and that makes a shitload of no sense.

I think it should be left alone. It's amazing to me that some peolpe want to vilify religion and at the same time make up excuses for why children shoot their parents and Serial killers. I'm not the most religious person by any means but I've attended a lot of different Denominations of Christian churches and they all pretty much follow the ten commandments. I'd like to one day visit a a Muslim Mosque and a Jewish Synagog but i doubt I would be welcomed.

It's already been stated many times over but that is not true. Even YOU don't believe that is "nothing more" than a historical reminder. And if that's the basis of the argument on why the 10 Commandments should be placed in a court room, then it being a FALSE claim should invalidate that argument (provided the Taliban, er, I mean religious conservatives, actually believe that is the justification).

All of your other arguments are religiously justified, and thus violate the First Amendment, which is exactly why they shouldn't be placed in govt buildings.

Only, that is no more or less authentic a claim than God having given him the Laws. There is no proof that the exodus as described ever happened, or that a man named Moses ever existed. Some interpretations have gone as far as to claim that the entire story is a symbolic representation of God and his people striving with each other. It certainly makes for a monumental nation-building myth, which is probably just what it is. More likely than not, the commandments were made up by a bunch of scholars who came up with the story and sold it to us that way.

You'll be more than welcome in a Mosque provided you take off your shoes. Just remember .. careful with mosques.... them Imams are very very political! There are certain Imams I have very very little respect for because of the way they sometimes mold your mind to thinking a certain way.

X loves watching a good debate. A debate over religion at that! Popcorn would go nice right about now.

The Declaration of Independence stated that All MEN are Created Equal.....
...but because of this one line stating MEN, the rest of the declaration shouldn't be honored or glorified?

ofcourse you could bring up the argument, The Founding Fathers didnt really mean MEN!...but really, did they?

So once again, a majority of the commandments is a way to be a good person....

...but you cant complain on taking out the "god" in a testament made by him.

And another thing!!!! This is set of Jewish laws that the Jews strictly follow! But, in terms of "idles", which are the cross, and the statues, thats a catholic thing....which is only a part of the Christian belief....and if a Catholic worships these statues, it doesn't go against their religion.

First of all no one is vilifying religion. Not wanting the govt to endorse a particular religion and impose it on the rest of us is not maligning religion at all. In fact, the American Taliban, er, I mean the defenders of this, are the ones denegrating all other religions by defacto endorsement of one specific religion as correct and legal.



If any of them have crosses in them on display or images of Jesus, then no they don't.



That's a pretty ignorant assumption to make unless you plan on walking in and telling them how wrong they are. But the same could probably be said of Christian churches as well.

There is no direct connection between being non-religious and being a murderer.

Religious people kill too, and plenty of non-religious people are moral (morality is independent of God; Plato proved that 2,500 years ago).

In fact, religion has often been used to incite violence against many various groups, and has been variously used to justify racism, sexism, etc. Then again, it's been used to fight all of that as well.

So, a rabbi and a priest go into a bar, and the bartender looks up and says, "What is this, some kind of joke?"

OKAY, Beetlebrox. We get it already. American Taliban. We get it!

I love that so much. It was my MSN nickname for the longest time. But wait... isn't there a third part? Priest, rabbi... something else... seems rather bare. Maybe I'm wrong though. Still good.

Im aware of that..

And i mean this as a real question, and not a sarcastic remark...

But isn't this the BASIS of the Judeo Religion?

The purpose of the comment was just saying that the Commandments were more of a "Godly" thing then a "Christian" thing.

What does the Declaration of Indepence have to do with this?



The cross is not just a Catholic thing. It's a pretty broad Christian symbol. But displaying it and worshipping to it are CLEARLY and unequivocally forbidden by the 4th Commandment. So it only goes against their religion if they consider the Commandments any sort of relevant guide for their religious beliefs.

But again, this is STILL all religious arguments and that STILL makes the display of the 10 Commandments a violation of the First Amendment.