So, now that the polls are closed, we can safely say that the doomsday scenarios (which I truly believe was wishful thinking on their part), presented by the Iraqi insurgents as well as by the ultra-left and the ultra-right in the U.S., did not materialize. The election took place and, though there was some violence, the streets of Iraq did not become "awash with the voters' blood".

Still, the question remains, was the election a success?

Pros:


• 72% turnout
• Generally speaking, the violence was contained
• If the allegations of fraud (which I'm sure will be present), are not substantiated, then nobody will be able to doubt the legitimacy of the interim National Assembly and the president
  
  Cons
  
• Very low Sunni Arab turnout. That could lead to two things: Sunnis being more eager to participate in the Constitutional referendum and the December election, or to Sunnis feeling even more disenfranchised in the future political process.
• Despite the lack of promised widespread violence, 44 people were still killed. The Iraqis might not be so willing to vote the next time around, although I think if the supposed violence wasn't a deterrent today, then it won't be a deterrent the next time around.
  

Well, the election's over and done with, so I guess that's one positive thing.


I'm pretty apathetic about it; we're a tiny minority, and whichever group ends up leading, will end up screwing us

I was meaning to ask you, box - did you vote?

No, I didn't. It's a bit difficult to explain; I don't like the representation, if you want to put it that way.

Btw, I just found out recently that there are a good 45,000 or so Assyrians in Russia and some 65,000 or so in Brazil. I don't know how that Brazil one happened, but as regards Russia, they probably fled there because of the massacres. Turks and Kurds probably killed 100,000+. I say probably because nobody knows for sure because Turkey denies it ever happened, just like with Armenia.


Oh, and according to some, I'm not supposed to exist. I've read one 'scholar' who said that Assyrians effectively ceased to exist 600 BC. What's odd is that there is evidence to prove that we still were around and are. Heh, I think even Marco Pollo mentions it (early Assyrian Christians went as far as Japan to convert).

Em, see, they're trying to put a democratic face on an area that is so steeped in hatred, it's ridiculous. Whoever wins, we lose. The only thing I hope for is that Iraq doesn't go the way of Iran and Syria. If so, we're really screwed.*

*There are Assyrians (aka Chaldeans aka whatever you want to call them) in Syria and Iran too; only, a gov't of the kind in Iraq I think could be really troublesome.

Will the EU make Turkey acknowledge and take responsibility for the genocides before it's allowed to join?

I wouldn't count on it.


It's Kurds and Turks. Thing is, if you've got a tiny Christian minority in an overwhelmingly Muslim country, they're bound to be taken advantage of repeatedly.


If you want some pretty comprehensive info, go to this site:

http://www.aina.org/martyr.htm#1918%20T ... 0Assyrians

I don't know if this is 100% accurate, but it's about as accurate a list as I've come across.


A brief summary:

Between 1914 and 1918, approximately 250,000 Assyrians were the victims of genocide. The author of this book documents local and western eyewitness reports about systematic attempts by Turkish, Persian, and Kurdish troops to deport and massacre their Assyrian neighbors in Eastern Turkey and Western Iran. This sad chapter in the First World War became known as the "Assyrian Tragedy." Although the Turkish authorities were the perpetrators responsible for this genocide, the German government acted as co-conspirator. The Germans trained and commanded Turkish troops and encouraged their Turkish ally to proclaim Jihad against the Christians, as Yonan ably documents in this book.

http://www.bmjbookshop.com/shop/product ... n+Genocide


Note that Turkey's Christian population prior to these massacres was 4.5-5m, with Turkey's total at around 14.5M. It is now 0.1% of the total population. Makes you wonder where all the Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians went, eh?

I would say so. It's one of the top concerns of the EU with Turkey.

Btw, I don't hate Turkey, lol. I've actually met some and they're very nice. But the stuff above just goes to show how completely screwed up that area is. The people of the Middle East hate each other and have done so for centuries and millenias. There is no love lost between any two groups. And minorities always get the short end of it.

Iraqi Voting Disrupts News Reports of Bombings

Classic

Well, I agree with your pros and cons Krem, and I'm just pretty relieved its done with. Do I think it will deter future voters? Not really. If it was actually 72% in the face of immediate danger and such unstable environment, I don't see how it could get dramatically worse, even if the volatile nature of election day continues. It may not either? But depending on how disenfranchised sections of the community feel, it may.

And Boxie, that's one of the complications of majority rule that is prevelant everywhere, especially when still religiously bound. But in other places its socially or economically bound. I wonder about it, since some systems try to build a parliementary structure to compliment the majority lead leaders where the seat break-down takes into consideration minority groups. Its a tough call though since it may or may not further split groups identities along the lines of religion, which may not be the route some want to go. I don't know, its clearly complication, and the fact that you mentioned lack of acknowledgement of existance is just, well, silly (on thier part, not yours). It serves no government or communities interest to try and force delusion. Its a useless tactic that has historically been employed with little success, so one day hopefully it will become an obsolete method of dealing with people.

My true fear about the election is that its not going to stop someone from assissination attempts, which will just put everyone back to square one two days from now. Definately not in the clear yet.

Ya, definitely. On a personal level, the problem is even more pronounced since I'm moving farther and farther away from religion; having re-read large parts of the Bible recently, I was shocked and how little I cared. And I didn't take any of it seriously. I actually started laughing at some of Jacob's antics, heh. And I have this feeling that St. Matthew and St. Paul were bitter and spiteful .


Anyways, back to Iraq. I think one of the problems with exiles (I guess I'd be among that group), is that many of us don't really connect as well with it. I'm ideologically as far removed from it as anyone else I know of; there is no other connection I feel to the place than to any other, really. The only thing of value is that it holds some kind of meaning to my family, that's it.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, and something else: nation states, ethnicities, claims to heritage, etc., those things are starting to irritate me. I see no reason why a person today should lay claim on a land their ancestors (apparently) lived on millenias ago.

I dont care if they are a success or not. We invaded to stop a threat, which didn't exist. Nation Building smation building. If our goal is to nation build hell lets pull out and take all the troops to the tsunami areas.

But I guess Bush is hip deep in it now, it's like Vietnam except that Vietnam didn't really strategically matter much, but if Iraq goes bad it's kaboom. So we can't declare victory and pull out.

Boy am I glad the other party is running things totally and not caring much what anyone else thinks. I can just forget about the whole thing.

It is not a free election. How can it be a free election when an occupying force determines who contests? It is not a success just like transfer of power in the end of June 2004 was a laughable failure. Bush and his paid cronies in the media yelling success does not make it so.

Still mad at my tax dollars being spent on some faraway land for reasons based on lies.

$1B+ a week, jb, $1B+ \:D/


I'm expecting you to send a Dear Mr. Bush letter asking for compensation :wink:


btw, who else voted no?

Archie and jb?

Yes.

I did vote no.

Every step of the way in Iraq, the bush admin. claims success and it always turns out to be complete failure.

If it is a free election, why do they need 170,000 occupying forces to enforce the free election?

When the admin. and their mouthpieces yell we have made progess, schools have opened and there is sporadic running water and electricity in some places, it makes my blood boil.

As compared to having those services all the time before we bombed the shit of Iraq's infrastructure. Iraq was not some poor country prior to this war. It had good infrastructure and lot of wealth (oil). Now bush can share in the distribution of the Iraqi wealth among his oil buddies.

jb, you are entitled to your opinion about the invasion, but to say that Iraq was not a poor country before invasion does not jive with reality. All that wealth you're talking was going into the hands of one person, who had a knack for killing anyone who disagreed with him.

That did not start fully after the Gulf War in 1991. My half brother worked in Iraq till 1990 when he was evacuated prior to the war. He had accumulated lot of wealth himself till 1990, though he lost most of it in 1990. Prior to sanctions, Saddam though a brutal dictator, let people be, unless they went after him or were a threat to him. It was not a poor country by any means prior to sanctions.

And sanctions are related to the invasion how, exactly?

That's right; they were removed after the invasion.

The economic sanctions were placed in 1990 after he invaded Kuwait. The economic sanctions stayed on for 13 years from 1990 to 2003 and were a joke. It decimated the people of Iraq. Saddam built more palaces and lived grand using the money from the corrupt Oil for Food program.

As for the infrastructure work in the past two years, it could not be administered any worse than it is being by KBR and other infrastucture design and development companies. The company my friend works for has a good chunck of infrastructure design subcontract. They have accomplished exactly zilch on their part due to lack of coordination, lack of good designers and engineering managers in the field in Iraq and outright corruption in the execution of these projects. American taxpayers are being taken for a ride again, this time by Cheney's company and their subcontractors.

It certainly wasn't. It was better off prior to the Iran-Iraq conflict too. These Gulf wars have completely ruined the country; it has set it back at least 30-40 years.

I agree with you here. But what you said was something different - that pre-war Iraq was somehow not poor and Bush went in and made everything bad there, which is outright false.

Where were you and your righteousness before the war in Iraq?

Krem,

Bush continued in 2003 what started in 1991. Don't tell me bombing the shit out of most of the public infrastructure and rebuilding less than a fourth of it is Not Making it Worse. If this is not then I don't know what is.

Yes, Iraq was a brutal dictatorship but was NOT a poor country prior to 1990 and the Gulf War. Ask any Iraqi, they will tell you. Their standard of living was just a few notches below that of the western nations.

I am not anti-war. I am anti-bullshit which Bush and is admin. is full of. My righteousness is always there. I go by what I perceive as right and wrong, not by some stupid party line. I don't belong to the left or right. I agree with some things from either side but not everything either side says. Because of his vote I called Kerry a moron too.

Hans Blix and Joe Wilson kept insisting that there were no WMD's and that this admin. was lying. They were vilified at that time. Look who turned out to be the liar, Bush.

I was mad then and I was mad now.

Finally, someone who doesn't align himself with with a complete stance for one party. Kudos to you. And I agree with your analysis on the situation there.

Thanks, bABA