Justin Gatlin was tested positive with a high testosterone level after an April relay race in Kansas City. One more puzzle piece to my theory that the US is the German Democratic Republic of the 21st Century in terms of doping. He should be stripped of his world record he ran in May

Do you have a link?

I'm not finding this on ESPN, did it just break? (and T&F just isn't big news here outside of the Olympics.)

Gad, these statements that sound like they were written by lawyers get annoying after a while.

Wonder why this broke now? This almost has to be in the middle of an appeals process. (Yeah, as if I didn't know what would have prompted a leak...)

Perhaps he should ask Palmeiro where it came from. It's almost the same excuse.

I read a funny story today with the best excuses for doping accusations - unfortunately it's in german. My favorite came from someone who claimed the Clenbuterol found in his home was for his asmathic dog

BTW - your analogy - do you simply mean that the US has the largest concentration of idiot dirty athletes at this time, or do you mean imply more?

Can't really argue with us having the largest concentration of idiots, but I think that's simply due to us also having the largest concentration of spoiled brat athletes who think they can get away with anything they want.

Although the irony seems to be that with the exception of baseball, the vast majority of these idiots are in sports that are not super popular here.

No, I mean to imply more. IMO the US has the most sophisticated doping system, with the newest doping techniques and the best ways to disuise thei doping in urine and blood tests. It is probably a social problem, I think in the US even more than in most other countries sports is a way to climb up the social ladder. Many people, I wouldn't call them idiots per se, wouldn do a lot to achieve that which helps the doping industry.
Another big problem is that the US media always jumps to the defense of their athletes. If someone's tested positive they're the poor guys or even better it is a conspiracy againt US athletes because they are so successful. If there's no pressure from the outside, nothing will change. The funding of the US-anti-doping-agencies is ridicously low compared to the money that is earned with doping in companies like BALCO. That's why the doping hunters will never catch up with the creeps who cheat their way to the top.

Numerous points to make - and we may just be missing the others point. I take you to be implying a conspiracy of the type that is both socially sanctioned and government sponsored. If so, I feel that you are simply wrong. The free market or capitalist system, whichever you prefer, is simple enough to explain things.

#1 - There is no uniform doping system in the sense you mean to imply. The balco's of this country are independent operators with little incentive to work with each other. What we do have, however, is a large overall investment in the medical industry, most of which has nothing to do with doping. However, there are those within the field can clearly see the money to be made in going over to the dark side, as it were. And if they do, please keep in mind their activities are acutally illegal, and they therefore have little reason to want any attention from the public, media or government.

#2 - While there is a strong incentive to achieve athletically, please also understand, there are also strong incentives to be "clean". Leave Bonds out of this for the moment - McGuire as an example provides a more than adquete example of what I mean. He is very much persona non grata in the public eye, and his testimony before congress destroyed both his endorsement income as well as his hall of fame chances. In baseball, HOF membership is the gravy train for life. There is a reason Rose was so keen to get in, there is a lot of money to be made there, and hence a lot to be lost.

#3 In terms of the spending for anti-doping by the government - some points to understand: There is no comprehensive government regulation of sports in this country. There are certain activities that are actually criminal (possession, use and distrbution of steriods being among them), and others that are regulated as a matter of public interest (boxing and horse racing being among the few), but the major sports in this country are not regulated, nor does the authority of such agencies we have extend to them. This is in keeping with American tradition, which has always preferred industry self regulation over government interference.

#4 I am not going to go into a long dissertation here, but also keep in mind that except for baseball, the major sports in this country learned long ago that drugs of any sort are bad for business. A good part of this is because sports income is highly dependent on corporate sponsorship - both the leagues and the athletes, and corporate america has no interest in having drug users be their endorsors. Baseball is just now learning this lesson, much to its sorrow. And in the case of baseball, it's also pretty clear that what was going on was more along the lines of willful ignorance than active promotion. Baseball looked the other way for the short term buck, and is now learning why other sports shunned that particular dollar.

#5 The Media - we seem to have a different impression. I'd say the media at this point is far more likely to proceed with a witch hunt than it is to defend. The articles I read after the Landis announcement were almost uniformly along the lines of "Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do", and were hardly defending him as innocent. I should make a distinction though - there is a great difference over here at least, when it comes to accusation vs. proof. It is certainly true the media in general will defend an athlete who has merely been accused where there are not solid grounds to accept the accusation. Positive tests are another matter. I'd say this is cultural. The concept of innocent until proven guilty is pretty foundational - hence we want proof. Once it has arrived in conclusive fashion, I can think of few who are defending once its in.

#6 This leads to some legal discussion. I'm not sure how your courts work, but there is a lot of deference given here to due process. Which basically is a restatement of the innocent until proven guilty comment in the previous post, or better put, an explanation of how that concept is enacted. What this means is that any agency, government or the sport itself, pretty much has to put together a process that insures that the rights of the accused are protected. To translate that, the level of proof that is pretty much going to be required is the same that is required in court - beyond a reasonable doubt. And that the athlete must be allowed to present his case, attempt to rebut the evidence, confront his accusers, and for all intents and purposes be judged by a neutral jury. For a sport or government agency to attempt to operate otherwise would leave it open to constitutional challenge, and having its judgement rendered null. Keep in mind also that another unstated principle of the American legal system is that it is founded on the notion that it is better to allow a guilty man to go free than convict an innocent. No it doesn't work out that way all the time in practice, but that is the principle.

#7 I have a point to make about there being a real difference here between the major sports, which are essentially self regulated and frankly, fairly well funded, and sports such as Track & Field and Cycling which I will agree are not. I'll have to think about how I want to phrase this, but the basic idea is - there is actually a stronger incentive to cheat in those sports than in the major ones. What little corporate dollars that are available there are only going to go to the best of the best. Not sure how I want to phrase this, may try again later.

In summary then - no, I'd disagree in terms of a wide, tammany hall type conspiracy. I will agree however, that there are cultural and economic reasons for why a set of independant actors can flourish.

I'm on your side here Levy, but you do realize that Clem is used on animals. That's why you have to get it from a vet.

Apparently, though, the gentleman meant his pet horse...

ESPN finally picked this up. A bit more detail in this story. Apparently this is in the appeals process, according to the article both samples tested positive. It says the B sample was tested in July, so maybe that is why this broke now. There is certainly also some guilt by association here, though a bit tenuous. And the resemblence to Palmeiro is even more striking in this article.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/trackandf ... id=2533757

Say goodnight Gracie.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was steered from the government like in the German Democratic Republic. I just want to say that the US does have the most sophisticated system at their hands which many individuals will use for their own good (or bad). The only thing I accuse the US Sporting Organisations and the media is that they don't demonize those people who use that stuff. I still remember how long for example Tyler Hamilton or Marion Jones have been defended

Wow. The race was in april. It took them to months to open the B sample?

Wow, Levy is a very unpleasant person.

Great post, deathawk.

I take that as a compliment

Levy - No problem - I thought I might be unclear on exactly what you meant to imply . I pretty much agree with you - although in the two cases you cite I'd say the issue is as much that those sports are minor in this country as it is any specific impulse to defend "Americans". I guess in that sense I'd also agree with you - it would be easier to clean things up in those sports if we as a society cared more about all the sports equally.

My bet in regards to why it took so long to test Gatlin's B sample: since he has the right to be present at the B sample test, it may have simply taken a bit to make those arrangements.

That supports my theory.

What the name of the Anti Doping Agency Chairman?

Dick Pound?

Here are two articles that make interesting counterpoints to each other and underline a number of the points in this thread.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/ ... id=2534683

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/m ... index.html

I agree iwth this Mark Maguire is the exception not the rule, he really took a huge hit, evne though for awhile he was taking a drug that was banned in every sport but baseball.

Bonds still has way to much support from the public imo. Defending athletes is ifne, but when the vidence ocmes in and they are not innocent then people need to admit that. We are greating a culture where doping is not seen as wrong, let alone the fact that its dangerous.

I'm all for lifetime bans, we need to send a serious message to athletes, dope and you are done. Pull their endorsements, all of it. Take way their records. We've been far to lax, we need to get tough and soon.

And the next one who we all knew to be a doper falls:

Five-time Olympic medalist Marion Jones, once the charming, dominating face of track and field around the world, failed an initial drug test at the U.S. championships in June, people familiar with the results told The Associated Press on Friday.

Jones' "A" sample tested positive June 23 for the banned performance-enhancer EPO at the event in Indianapolis, one source told the AP on condition of anonymity because the official results are not yet public.

The 30-year-old sprinter made a triumphant return to the sport's center stage in Indianapolis, with a victory in the 100 meters, her 14th U.S. title but first since 2002.

If a second sample, or "B" sample, also tests positive, one of the biggest stars of the Sydney Olympics would face a minimum two-year ban from competition.

ESPN Links for the above (I am assuming you saw this elsewhere, though, Levy):

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/trackandf ... id=2554220

Also an accompanying commentary:

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/trackandf ... id=2554453

Of interest to this thread is the following excerpt: