Ah, yes, racism! Yes, that is Israel's problem - is its overt racism. And that is exactly why Arab countries condemn its action - it's because they're shining beacons of multi-cultural relations.

Really, Jon, EDUCATE yourself on the what is going on in the Middle East. Don't just spew out Chomsky's regurgitated bullshit on the subject; it just makes you sound stupid.

I will agree with you on one thing, Tyler: the people of Gaza are being collectively punished.

Hamas Refuses to Allow Flotilla Aid into Gaza Strip

That's not what I meant. There *is* a lot of overt racism culturally, but I don't think that's what drives it. I mentioned it because in spite of some alarming statistics of self-admitted racism in the country among many other things, most Israelis are just people trying to get by and affected by circumstance, and many people critical of Israel's actions forget that. These are individuals and people, not a monolith.

You're not an Israeli G-man, are you? But yes, the government's general mentality is of entitlement. They act like the world's biggest "asshole short guy" stereotype. And they aim to create the facade of Israel as a civilized country WHILE openly brutalizing people. Have the cake and eat it too, yes?



Uh, they weren't at war with activists, or Turkey. But regardless, they highlighted the naval blockade successfully, yes. I don't know if they intended to martyr themselves to highlight it, but I think we can both agree this incident would be forgotten if 10-20 people didn't die.



It's not logical, but if you can't see why it doesn't breed anger, I don't know what to say. The Palestinians are the ones with their backs against the wall, and live in isolated, densely-packed squalor. This is due to its historic conflict with a country right next door inflicting a blockade. This breeds even further resentment. Isn't that easy to see why? I can also see why there was a want for a Jewish state, and to preserve it, even if the idea of a nation-state is outdated and morally questionable. I can see why Israelis live on constant alert. But they aren't in nearly as precarious a position, and the bully position the government is in makes it harder to sympathize at a gut level.



That's actually not what I meant, either. I was highlighting that Hamas simply WANTS Israel to exist. Israel ain't going away anyway, so they get to have that. Israel has enough nukes to exist permanently, or go down with the rest of the world, after all. It's not 1949. Now, if we had a time machine to keep the British from screwing this up...

I'd believe it, but IDF blog? Syrianly?

The guy that did the flotilla:

http://www.wpix.com/news/local/wpix-gaz ... 8687.story

Yup, those peaceful activists.

Brutalizing people? Hyperbole much? Where's the substance?


You seem to be missing the point of a naval blockade. They're blockading Gaza, hence they are intercepting ships bound for Gaza.

That's a non sequitur. It's not like Israel purposefully set out to kill activists, but what happened happened. The point is that the flotilla activists brought this on themselves and knew very well what they were doing.


Well, stop acting on a gut level, and educate yourself. Maybe then you will look at things a little differently. And surely I can sympathize with the Palestinian people, but no amount of damage that Israel ever did will even remotely measure up to the great injustice imposed upon them by the other Arab states, the point you refuse to address time and time again. This goes back over 60 years.


Hamas's official position is that they want to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth. What they "want" to do is irrelevant, especially considering the reality of non-stop attacks on Israel. If they truly wanted to be left alone, they'd simply stop sending rockets into Israel. Problem solved.

It's been confirmed by other sources, including Hamas itself. See here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... aid-israel



Clearly they have the well-being of Gaza residents as their number one priority, just like the flotilla activists did.

No Arab state has supported the Palestinian state over the last 60 years. Instead they chose to focus on destruction of Israel, with the casualties being for the most part Palestinians. Had there been actual cooperation on the part of Arab states, you would see a true Palestinian state today and its citizens would've been vastly better off.

But it's not too late to revert the process. It would actually require Hamas to cease its provocations against Israel, but it's doable. Anyone who's serious about the long-term peace process in the region can't be seriously supporting Hamas's actions.

Guess he didn't get his wish, though perhaps someone else did. Israel played right into it.

I can do the condescending "educate yourself" shtick too. Google it.



Why play into their hands? Not only that, but commandos not being able to handle a bunch of untrained, unarmed, slovenly hippies is idiotic. It's horrible planning, but the flippancy is truly repugnant, if expected. Again, government entitlement, probably linked to a god complex among many.



It's not just on a gut level.

Yes, pretty much any Arab state I can think of uses Palestine for political purposes, but I don't get your point. Are you trying to point out that there should be more anger in Palestine at other Arab states for the giant clusterfuck they are in? It's a good point, but I never denied that and I was aware of it.

Then again, why should I address the point when you seemed to glide on my little points, like this being on international waters and that they put in such a heavy, poorly planned out hand? I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that the intent wasn't to harm anyone.



No, what they want is perfectly relevant. Hamas cares above all else about retaining power. They will certainly let their populace stave, lob the occasional rocket attack to keep the anger at Israel going, Israel will respond in a matter much more consequential, they can blame Israel effectively (and do this with many things switching points b & c), they stay in power. How is that not relevant?

And, no, Hamas doesn't want to be left alone. When did I say that?

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it is simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army."

--David Ben-Gurion

I think he got the generations part wrong.

But dude, the Israelis won't bulldoze your house if you submit.

Oh, and, the Turks want to send down another flotilla with a naval escort. Can we shit ourselves in unison over that?

Seriously? Do you not see the difference between maritime law and emotionally-charged terms?


Why play into their hands? Well, according to the law of naval blockade, you have to enforce the blockade at ALL TIMES. Not selectively. But I'm sure you already knew that, seeing how you're up on international law

As for commandos' actions, it's extremely easy to judge from an armchair. Would it be better if the people didn't die? Of course! But that doesn't mean that what Israel did wasn't right.

And by the way, what exactly do yo mean when you say "government entitlement"?


The point is that MOST of the blame should be targeted at the Arab states. Not some. Almost all of it. Every time Israel acts in self-defense everyone gets all uppity, but you never see a peep about the ongoing collective punishment, to use your phrasing,


Except that I did address both points, yet you seemed to have missed them. Let me repeat: 1) the point about international waters has absolutely no merit. There is nothing in the naval blockade law that suggests that you can only enforce the blockade in your territorial waters. And if you think about it for just a second, you would understand that it makes no sense either. Imagine the U.S. blockading Germany in WW2 and only being able to do so within 12 miles of U.S. territorial waters.

2) You seem to be forgetting that this operation took place at sea. It's not like you can dispatch riot police to the ships.


Occasional attacks? Here's the list just from this year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pa ... rael,_2010

They're happening every couple of days. And this is after the blockade, which limited the arms shipments into Gaza.

You're saying both sides need to change as if both sides are equally to blame. They're not. But it just so happens that every time Israel acts in self-defense it gets a UN resolution slapped against it and the world community gets furious with it, while Palestinian attacks go largely ignored or are seen as par for the course.

Seriously? You think I find this to be an isolated incident of carelessness towards civilians?





I guess the Marines were just a little too tensed up at Kent State...



The Jews control the money! Nah, the actions performed by and sanctioned by the state alluding to a certain mentality.



That's because Israel is held to higher standards than any Arab state. It's a highly developed and ostensibly progressive western-ish country, after all.



Oh yeah, a flotilla of civilians is really a great comparison to the Kriegsmarine. Serbianly?



How about destroying the rudder?



Yeah, that was bad wording. It still works, though. Attack Israel, they attack back in a much more effective way, they got a boogeyman. Plus the civilian casualties in Israel are much, much smaller these days, which really helps that perception.

Reverse-flotilla for Turkey? Considering I trust the Turks even less...ugh...