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Prop 8 discussion thread: Upheld https://www.worldofkj.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=45873 |
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Author: | getluv [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:16 am ] |
Post subject: | Prop 8 discussion thread: Upheld |
so i read somewhere that 77% of the money supporting Prop 8 is coming from the Mormons in Utah. http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la ... 5703.story Quote: While California voters remain closely divided on the question of gay marriage, a majority oppose a measure to ban it, according to a poll released Wednesday by the Public Policy Institute of California. But the poll also found that support for Proposition 8, which would amend the state Constitution to disallow same-sex marriage, has gained somewhat since a similar survey was taken in late August. The latest results show 44% in favor and 52% opposed, with a margin of sampling error of 3 percentage points. Recent polls commissioned by groups for and against the initiative have showed it passing, though most political analysts put less faith in polls funded by partisans than in those conducted by independent groups like the Public Policy Institute. The institute's president, Mark Baldassare, predicted that the election would be close. Polls on the more general question of how voters feel about gays and lesbians marrying have consistently shown a deeply divided electorate, with voters split almost evenly and passionate feelings on both sides. With huge turnout expected from younger voters and independents, the election is filled with uncertainties, and polling experts say it poses special challenges for pollsters. Other findings of the poll include: * Likely voters remained closely divided on Proposition 4, a constitutional amendment that would prohibit girls under 18 from getting abortions without their parents being notified. The poll found 46% in favor, 44% against and 10% undecided. * Nearly one-quarter of voters remain undecided on Proposition 11, a ballot measure backed by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger that would set up an independent commission to redraw boundaries for legislative districts. The poll found 41% in favor, 34% opposed. * Four out of five voters said they were worried about the state budget. Fourty-four percent say they support fixing the budget gap with a mix of spending cuts and tax increases while 37% say they want to see mostly spending cuts. The findings were based on telephone surveys of 1,186 likely voters between Oct. 12 and 19. The Proposition 8 battle has emerged as the most expensive of all of this year's ballot measure campaigns, and has aroused strong passions on both sides. As of Wednesday, Yes on 8 campaign committees had raised $26.7 million while the No on 8 committees had brought in $26.1 million The California Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage in May, ruling that the state Constitution's promise of equal protection affords gays and lesbians the same right to marry as heterosexual couples. The ruling overturned Proposition 22, passed by voters in 2000, which defined marriage as only between a man and a woman. By amending the Constitution, Proposition 8 would remove the basis for the court's ruling. Same-sex couples began marrying in June. Many religious leaders and other opponents of same-sex marriage have worked hard since then to pass Proposition 8. Campaign contributions from out of state are flooding into California -- in part because the state is considered a bellwether, and what happens here could shape the future of gay marriage across the country. Only one other state, Massachusetts, allows same-sex marriage, although the high court in Connecticut recently ruled that gays should be allowed to marry there. Baldassare, the president of the Public Policy Institute, said his poll also found that those in favor of the proposition tend to be more passionate than those on the other side. Sonja Eddings Brown, spokeswoman for Yes on 8, dismissed the new poll results. "Every other poll that we have seen has shown us" winning, she said, including polling released by the No on 8 side a few weeks ago as part of a fundraising campaign that showed the proposition with a narrow lead. Charles Franklin, a political science professor at the University of Wisconsin and a developer of Pollster.com, said different polls could produce different outcomes depending on "how you ask the question." This could be particularly true of Proposition 8, he noted, because many voters have expressed confusion about what yes and no votes mean. A yes vote would ban same-sex marriage, while a no vote would preserve it. Steve Smith, the campaign manager for the effort to defeat the measure, had another explanation for diverging poll results: People keep changing their minds. Although many voters on both sides know exactly how they are going to cast their ballots, a chunk of voters in the middle are not just undecided but "conflicted," he believes, on the question of whether to ban gay marriage. People are "moving back and forth on this," he said. "It's a very volatile electorate." |
Author: | Floydboy [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
iluv wrote: so i read somewhere that 77% of the money supporting Prop 8 is coming from the Mormons in Utah. Actually, the correct way to phrase it is that the money is coming from members of the Mormon Church who live in CA. There's ~750,000 that live there (or something like that I think). The money came from them, not the Church itself that is based in Utah. Though the amount the people in CA donated wouldn't surprise me as there are some affluent members there. |
Author: | getluv [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
as if you'd waste ur money on that. |
Author: | Floydboy [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
I sure don't have money to waste on that. However, I guess if people are millionares they may have extra $$ to donate to what they choose. |
Author: | Beeblebrox [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:16 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
It took far too long for opponents of Prop 8 to get their butts in gear. I hope that they were not too late. They've just kicked in some big ad dollars to combat the lies and bigotry of the Prop 8 proponents. |
Author: | Rev [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
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Author: | Jim Halpert [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
i'm a little in the dark on this prop. A few years back the Cali citizens voted to keep marriage between man and women. Then the courts overturned it. Now Prop 8 is to decide if they will amend to make marriage between and man and woman. So is a vote yes for prop 8 mean that you support marriage to be between a man and woman only? |
Author: | Raffiki [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
YES on Prop 8 has been running the dirtiest and most manipulative campaign at the very least of this entire election and probably one of the worst in recent California history. Not only are their commercials comprised of FLAT-OUT lies, twists of the truth, exaggerations, and irrelevant information, but they have started calling No on 8 supporters and convincing them to vote YES if they support marriage for same-sex couples, which is ILLEGAL. Unfortunately, not much can be done about it now. And by the way, one of my close friends recently got a call from the YES on 8 people telling him to vote yes to support equality. I mean, I was outraged when I heard the reports, but when you have such a close first-hand experience with it, it really does something to you. I don't get it. Aren't these people CHRISTIANS? (That's a rhetorical question, please don't answer it =P) Anyway. Probably the most effective thing the Yes on 8 people have done has been to turn Prop 8 into an issue it is NOT ABOUT. They have made the ENTIRE campaign on both sides now focus on children and teaching about same-sex marriage in schools. Prop 8 says NOTHING about schools or children. Look in the voter guide where they have the actual texts of the props. Some of the props are like 20 pages long. Prop 8 is the shortest, literally a paragraph. The only thing it says is that it will amend the state constitution to define marriage as between a man and a woman and by doing so indoctrinating a separate but equal institution of marriage. Yes, Massachusetts does allow to teach about this in schools and sometimes parents can't object. And they keep citing this over and over and over again. California is not Massachusetts. We have different laws and codes when it comes to schools and what gets taught. In CA, the school districts, Education Code, and above all, parents choose what gets taught to our children. And parents have the option of opting their kids out of any teaching about family, marriage, etc. Parents have wayyyy more control over this stuff here than in MA. And now the newest commercial on the YES side which attacks our commercial (with CA state school superintendent actually saying children have nothing to do with the prop) claims in San Francisco 1st graders were taken to one of their teachers' same-sex wedding and that it's already happening. FACT: The idea for this field trip was brought up by a PARENT FACT: As with all field trips, permission slips had to be signed by parents FACT: Families of two students held their children from going. NO ONE WAS FORCED TO GO. FACT: Prop 8 actually has no effect on this. If the school found it "educational," this would still happen EVEN if Prop 8 manages to pass. Prop 8 will NOT change anything about what gets taught in schools so the same things that are allowed now will still be allowed after November 5th. As of only 2 weeks ago, the NO side's fund-raising was trailing the YES side. It was $25 million to our $15 million. In the past week and a half, money has been POURING in for our side. As of Friday night, the numbers were: NO on 8: $32.2 million YES on 8: $27.5 million Hopefully, we can use this money to counter their ridiculous and immoral campaign. I have easily given about 20+ hours of every week this month volunteering for NO on 8 and running my club (Student Coalition for Marriage Equality). I'm so exhausted at this point that it has been affecting my school and my health. If Prop 8 passes, I know a sizable chunk of my optimistic/hopeful character/demeanor will die with it. I can't imagine living in a world or a state that in THIS DAY AND AGE allows for such BLATANT illegal and immoral action ESPECIALLY in the hands of those who deem themselves the most moral of all people to prevail. By the way, the LA Times website has a GREAT resource on tracking funding for both sides and which areas of CA are giving the most, how much is from out os state and even searching through every person who has donated. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-moneymap,0,2198220.htmlstory |
Author: | Rev [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California ... on_8_(2008) Quote: Proposition 8 is an initiative measure on the 2008 California General Election ballot titled Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry.[1][2] If passed, the proposition would "change the California Constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry in California." [3] A new section would be added stating "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California." [3] |
Author: | Raffiki [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
Jim Halpert wrote: i'm a little in the dark on this prop. A few years back the Cali citizens voted to keep marriage between man and women. Then the courts overturned it. Now Prop 8 is to decide if they will amend to make marriage between and man and woman. So is a vote yes for prop 8 mean that you support marriage to be between a man and woman only? Yes. And unlike many other props and measures that have passed across the U.S. in recent years, this is the first time that if passed, such a measure would actually TAKE AWAY rights that are already available to people. There is no way around it. A YES vote literally means SEPARATE BUT EQUAL. And the judges overturned the 2000 measure because they found it to be unconstitutional. In the 50's, 75%+ supported a ban on interracial marriage. I am all for the people's vote but when it comes to the fundamental rights of people, especially minorities, then I am not willing to put that up to the decision of the majority. The checks and balances of our nation was made to ensure something like this doesn't happen. The judges were not doing anything out of the ordinary. |
Author: | Jim Halpert [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
so right now according to the poll, the No side is leading? |
Author: | getluv [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
why doesn't NO on 8 talk about the financial advantages of having same sex marriages, especially with the economy in the toilet. anyway i hope more celebrities come out. becuz i do think Hollywood celebrities do have a lotta pull there, than they would anywhere else. its kinda of the dumbest thing a Democrat would vote Obama and support this, i always thought liberals used more of the brain. |
Author: | Jim Halpert [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
Raffiki wrote: Jim Halpert wrote: i'm a little in the dark on this prop. A few years back the Cali citizens voted to keep marriage between man and women. Then the courts overturned it. Now Prop 8 is to decide if they will amend to make marriage between and man and woman. So is a vote yes for prop 8 mean that you support marriage to be between a man and woman only? Yes. And unlike many other props and measures that have passed across the U.S. in recent years, this is the first time that if passed, such a measure would actually TAKE AWAY rights that are already available to people. There is no way around it. A YES vote literally means SEPARATE BUT EQUAL. And the judges overturned the 2000 measure because they found it to be unconstitutional. In the 50's, 75%+ supported a ban on interracial marriage. I am all for the people's vote but when it comes to the fundamental rights of people, especially minorities, then I am not willing to put that up to the decision of the majority. The checks and balances of our nation was made to ensure something like this doesn't happen. The judges were not doing anything out of the ordinary. hmmmmm. interesting. |
Author: | Timayd [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
Nate Silver has some great analysis (as always) http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/prop-8-toss-up.html I'm really glad Mittens didn't get Gay Marriage on the ballot like he wanted to. I'd like to think we would have protected gay marriage, but I don't know. |
Author: | misutaa [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
Well in Berkeley, Prop 8 is definitely a big topic, and most people are voting NO, as am I. But I have heard some people who are not sure about it, and their reason is pretty obvious and stupid. Seriously, just because you are not gay, doesn't mean you should belittle them. I think people forget that the prop is against equality. |
Author: | Gulli [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
I find it interesting that Obama hasn't come out and vocally supported No on Prop 8 lately. Could it be due to the fact a large percentage of the black population in California are against it? |
Author: | Corpse [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
Obama does NOT support Gay Marriage though, and he does define legal marriage being between a man and a woman. He supports civil unions, like most DEMS do, but very few DEMS support Gay Marriage, openly at least. And I would think Obama, if he had to decide, would vote YES on this, no, am I missing something? |
Author: | Gulli [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:54 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
No Obama supports No he's just very low key about it. |
Author: | Timayd [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
Obama's against proposition 8, but without research you wouldn't know it. http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Barack_Obama_Civil_Rights.htm#Gay_Rights He's also come out many times against constitutional marriage amendments banning it. |
Author: | xiayun [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
Just voted No today. |
Author: | junio [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
Everyone needs to vote No on this wretch. |
Author: | Beeblebrox [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
Jim Halpert wrote: A few years back the Cali citizens voted to keep marriage between man and women. Then the courts overturned it. Now Prop 8 is to decide if they will amend to make marriage between and man and woman. So is a vote yes for prop 8 mean that you support marriage to be between a man and woman only? Originally, there was a referendum that banned gay marriage. It was challenged almost immediately and was eventually overturned by the CA courts as unconstitutional. Prop 8 addresses this by making the gay marriage ban an amendment to the CA Constitution, which would mean that it could only be overturned by another amendment, not the legislature or the courts. |
Author: | resident [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
My understanding of YES on 8 is that it is being pushed by an ambulance chaser from Florida. These 'morality groups' like family media watchdog groups, etc. make millions on appeals for donations through websites and the mail with phony scare tactics. They ought to be banned from campaigning in California. They do not live here. Of course the reason outside groups are on the attack is, apart from millions in donations, the federal Constitution promises that the privileges of citizens in any State shall be extended to the citizens of the several States, so when same-sex marriage is upheld in California or another State, then it is the privilege of anyone in any State to do and have the respect for the same. Why is this POS still on the ballot? Where are the No on 8 lawyers? Seems to me that the placing on the ballot of this Amendment constitutes both an Alliance (a group of special interests for the group, personal morality, etc.) and an act of Confederacy (an action taken by an objecting group in order to attack another segment of The People against the common goals of Liberty and Justice for All, and Privacy via the State Constitution) on the part of the voters at the State level. And then there is The 9th and 14th Amendments which stand above the powers of the State. Somebody should attempt an 11th hour injunction. |
Author: | Beeblebrox [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
Author: | Raffiki [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Prop 8 discussion thread |
Beeblebrox wrote: I wonder if that's an actual ad on TV. I haven't seen it and it's a minute long while all the ones I've seen are 30 seconds. |
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