Prime Minister Harper Suspends Parliament!!!
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Cotton
Some days I'm a super bitch
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:22 pm Posts: 6645
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
Caius wrote: What is it that some think Harper is going to do involving the Queen? Some people think that the Governor General may seek advice from the Queen regarding her decision. I don't think the Queen is going to get involved directly, though.
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:19 am |
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Cotton
Some days I'm a super bitch
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:22 pm Posts: 6645
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
Here's a great article on Parliamentary law regarding the legitimacy of the coalition. A lot of people should inform themselves before ranting and raving in the streets.  Quote: Constitution and precedent are on coalition's sideIgnorance of parliamentary rules is distorting debate over legitimacyDec 03, 2008 04:30 AM Comments on this story (39) Peter H. Russell As Canadians live through the current political uproar in Ottawa it is important that they understand the constitutional rules of our parliamentary democracy. The first rule is that when we hold an election we do not directly elect a prime minister. We elect a House of Commons. It is this elected chamber of Parliament that decides who governs the country. The second rule of parliamentary government is that it is the leaders of the party or coalition of parties that have the confidence of a majority in the House of Commons who have the right to govern. Immediately after an election the incumbent prime minister remains in office no matter how badly he or she may have done at the polls. In 1993, Kim Campbell was still prime minister of Canada even though she her party had elected only two MPs. It was obvious that a Campbell Conservative government would not have the confidence of the newly elected House of Commons so she tendered her resignation to the Governor General. The Governor General then called on Jean Chrétien, whose Liberal party had won a majority of seats in the House of Commons, to form a government. The situation is not always so clear. After the 1985 provincial election in Ontario, the incumbent premier, Frank Miller, whose Conservatives had won the most seats but were nonetheless in a minority position in the Legislative Assembly, formed a government and prepared to meet the newly elected Legislature. But when it became clear that Liberal Leader David Peterson and NDP Leader Bob Rae, whose parties between them had a majority in the Legislature, had signed an agreement whereby the NDP for two years would support a Liberal minority government so long as it pursued certain legislative priorities, Miller submitted his government's resignation to the Lieutenant Governor. These precedents and many, many others illustrate the basic point that in parliamentary democracies we elect parliaments not prime ministers, and that the Governor General (or the presidential head of state in a republican parliamentary system) must be advised by ministers who are supported by a majority in the elected house of parliament. Now let's apply these rules of parliamentary democracy to the situation Canada now faces. After the Oct. 14 election, Stephen Harper remained Prime Minister, formed a new government and prepared to face the House. Although his party had improved its seat total it was still in a minority position in the House. This meant that to continue in office Harper would have to win enough support from the opposition benches to secure the confidence of the House. For a few days it appeared that Harper would reach out in a conciliatory manner and garner the parliamentary support he needs on order to have the right to govern. But, to put it mildly, on Nov. 27 just a few days into the session, through his finance minister's economic update, he made an abrupt U-turn. Instead of seeking support from the opposition, his government presented an in-your-face, take-it-or-leave-it position. The opposition parties – all three of them – decided not to take it. Instead, they announced that they would use their collective majority in the House to vote no confidence in the Harper government and support an alternative coalition government. The no-confidence vote is to take place next Monday. If the government loses that vote, the rules of parliamentary democracy give Harper two options. He can tender his government's resignation to the Governor General and clear the way for Madame Jean to ask Stéphane Dion to form a Liberal-NDP coalition government. Or he can ask the Governor General to dissolve the 40th Parliament so that we can elect the 41st Parliament. The first option – resignation – would be entirely constitutional. It involves no "usurpation" of power but is an honourable way out of the present impasse. If Harper were to take the second option, the Governor General would have to consider carefully whether to grant his request for a dissolution. Her primary concern must be to protect parliamentary democracy. A steady diet of elections – four in four years – is not healthy for parliamentary democracy. If there is an alternative government available that has a reasonable prospect of being supported for a period of time by a majority in the House of Commons, she would have reason to decline Harper's request. Harper would then have to resign, and the Governor General would commission Dion to form a government. If this happens, again there would be no "usurpation" of power but a proper application of the rules and principles of parliamentary democracy. It has been very disturbing to hear over the last few days, from people who should know better, wild unparliamentary theories about our system of government. Elections are not simple popularity contests in which the leader whose party garners the most votes gets all the power. I am greatly concerned that there is so little public knowledge of the constitutional rules that govern our parliamentary system of government. These rules are not formally written down in a legal text or taught in our schools. Maybe the most important lesson to take from the situation we are now living through is to begin to codify as much as we can of this "unwritten" part of our Constitution and to ensure that it is well taught in our schools. http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/547336
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:26 am |
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Mannyisthebest
Forum General
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:53 pm Posts: 8642 Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
well the textbooks of Canadian history will have to re-written after this mess.
We thought the King-Byng affair was the biggest govt crisis, this is much worse.
Also this is going to be a big wake up call to how our system works.
Many people think you chose the PM directly, that a vote for Conservative is a vote for Stephen Harper.
Actually once a Parliament is elected, The leader of the party with the most seats in the house is given the right to govern. However if a coalition of a majority is put forth, the leader of the coalition can be PM.
Plus, The PM can resign and apoint anyone in his party to PM and he could do the same.
So really the PM role can shift around like nothing for 5 years.
_________________The Dark Prince 
Last edited by Mannyisthebest on Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:39 am |
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Cotton
Some days I'm a super bitch
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:22 pm Posts: 6645
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
Mannyisthebest wrote: well the textbooks of Canadian history will have to re-written after this mess.
We thought the King-Byng affair was the biggest govt crisis, this is much worse. It's a huge historical event, but I wouldn't call it a government crisis. What the opposition is proposing is perfectly legitimate. It's more a crisis of the personal kind to Stephen Harper and his Conservative Party. 
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:45 am |
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Cotton
Some days I'm a super bitch
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:22 pm Posts: 6645
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
A little refresher... Quote: Sept. 9, 2004 Her Excellency the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson, C.C., C.M.M., C.O.M., C.D. Governor General Rideau Hall 1 Sussex Dr. Ottawa, Ont. K1A 0A1 Excellency, As leaders of the opposition parties, we are well aware that, given the Liberal minority government, you could be asked by the Prime Minister to dissolve the 38th Parliament at any time should the House of Commons fail to support some part of the government's program. We respectfully point out that the opposition parties, who together constitute a majority in the House, have been in close consultation. We believe that, should a request for dissolution arise this should give you cause, as constitutional practice has determined, to consult the opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising your constitutional authority.Your attention to this matter is appreciated. Sincerely, Hon. Stephen Harper, P.C., M.P.Leader of the Opposition Leader of the Conservative Party of Canada Gilles Duceppe, M.P. Leader of the Bloc Quebecois Jack Layton, M.P. Leader of the New Democratic Party http://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=196483&sc=80Stephen Harper is a liar and a piece of shit.
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:47 am |
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Mannyisthebest
Forum General
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:53 pm Posts: 8642 Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
I think Harper will be able to suspend Parliament and imo the coalition will fall apart during the break. IMO Stephen Harper is hurt after this, and the Tories are now dead in Quebec. Actually they are now saying, Liberals are reborn again in Quebec, which means they still will not get over 20-22 seats. Imo as long as the polarizing figure of Stephen Harper is the Conservative leader, they would never get a majority. He is easily the most polarizing figure in Canada since Brian Mulroney for sure, however he is still more liked then Mulroney still, lol. Now he was a real douche!!! IMO the Liberals should just sit back and elect a new leader in May and start from there. Imo they can get more stable power that way and keep it for some time. This coalition way will just pave the way for the Conservatives to a majority. Really I prefer that Jim Pretence to replace Harper, cool headed man. Harper should replace Jim Flaherty with Jim Pretence. That would be a wise choice by Harper. Anyways Harper will face instability till Feb-March for sure and then the Liberals will get a new leader and that will cause Harper more trouble and we could see another election next Summer by Harper or next Spring 2010 by the Liberals for sure. I am certain a Election will be called by Spring 2010 at the latest and really we could have one this Monday!! 
_________________The Dark Prince 
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:56 am |
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Bradley Witherberry
Extraordinary
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:13 pm Posts: 15197 Location: Planet Xatar
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
Mannyisthebest wrote: Really I prefer that Jim Pretence to replace Harper, cool headed man.
Harper should replace Jim Flaherty with Jim Pretence. Is that a real name? If so, I bet he's got a hidden agenda...
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:07 am |
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Timayd
The 5th B-Sharp
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:48 am Posts: 1506
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
Wow, Harper's an ass. (not that was any new information)
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:04 pm |
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dolcevita
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:24 pm Posts: 16061 Location: The Damage Control Table
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
I'm a bit (read: a lot) behind here, but as I interpret it, the rest of the budget suggestions also seemed so crap that those alone should have led to serious questions about competency.
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:17 pm |
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Gulli
Jordan Mugen-Honda
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 9:53 am Posts: 13403
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
Why the hell is this thread calling it a Coup d'etat??? Its the collapse of a coalition government it happens sometimes.
_________________ Rosberg was reminded of the fuel regulations by his wheel's ceasing to turn. The hollow noise from the fuel tank and needle reading zero had failed to convay this message
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:32 pm |
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bABA
Commander and Chef
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:56 am Posts: 30505 Location: Tonight ... YOU!
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
some people aren't familiar with coalition govts i would assume.
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:25 pm |
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Groucho
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Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:30 pm Posts: 12096 Location: Stroudsburg, PA
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
Aw, isn't Canada just so cute with their little fights up there?!!! It's so adorable!
_________________Buy my books! http://michaelaventrella.com

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Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:27 pm |
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Beeblebrox
All Star Poster
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:40 pm Posts: 4679
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
Cotton wrote: A little refresher... Quote: Sept. 9, 2004 Her Excellency the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson, C.C., C.M.M., C.O.M., C.D. Governor General Rideau Hall 1 Sussex Dr. Ottawa, Ont. K1A 0A1 Excellency, As leaders of the opposition parties, we are well aware that, given the Liberal minority government, you could be asked by the Prime Minister to dissolve the 38th Parliament at any time should the House of Commons fail to support some part of the government's program. We respectfully point out that the opposition parties, who together constitute a majority in the House, have been in close consultation. We believe that, should a request for dissolution arise this should give you cause, as constitutional practice has determined, to consult the opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising your constitutional authority.Your attention to this matter is appreciated. Sincerely, Hon. Stephen Harper, P.C., M.P.Leader of the Opposition Leader of the Conservative Party of Canada Gilles Duceppe, M.P. Leader of the Bloc Quebecois Jack Layton, M.P. Leader of the New Democratic Party http://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=196483&sc=80Stephen Harper is a liar and a piece of shit. That's pretty douchy. Politicians are politicians everywhere. Remember Republicans wanted to outlaw the filibuster when they were the majority party, accusing Dems of obstructionism. Now that they are in the minority again and facing a Dem president, their position is exactly the opposite of what it was just a few years ago.
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:26 pm |
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Neostorm
All Star Poster
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:48 pm Posts: 4684 Location: Toronto
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
Groucho wrote: Aw, isn't Canada just so cute with their little fights up there?!!! It's so adorable! Thankfully we only have to pretend we have problems lolol.
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:31 pm |
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Box
Extraordinary
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:52 am Posts: 25990
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
Gulli wrote: Why the hell is this thread calling it a Coup d'etat??? Its the collapse of a coalition government it happens sometimes. No it's not. We don't have a coalition government at the moment. The opposition is thinking of forming a coalition to kick the minority Conservatives out. Manny is being senselessly dramatic.
_________________In order of preference: Christian, Argos MadGez wrote: Briefs. Am used to them and boxers can get me in trouble it seems. Too much room and maybe the silkiness have created more than one awkward situation. My Box-Office Blog: http://boxofficetracker.blogspot.com/
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:26 pm |
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Gulli
Jordan Mugen-Honda
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 9:53 am Posts: 13403
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
Box wrote: Gulli wrote: Why the hell is this thread calling it a Coup d'etat??? Its the collapse of a coalition government it happens sometimes. No it's not. We don't have a coalition government at the moment. The opposition is thinking of forming a coalition to kick the minority Conservatives out. Manny is being senselessly dramatic. I'd call that a Coalition if they where a minority in power, unless its like the British Parliament in 1996/97 with the Conservatives relying on the UUP to play nice to make government workable. I mean lay it out for me here, if they formed a government they must have at least made some deal with Independents or a minor smaller party. hell thats how Irish politic's has worked since 1997 and the end of the Rainbow Coalition.
_________________ Rosberg was reminded of the fuel regulations by his wheel's ceasing to turn. The hollow noise from the fuel tank and needle reading zero had failed to convay this message
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:33 pm |
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Mister Ecks
New Server, Same X
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:07 pm Posts: 28301 Location: ... siiiigh...
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
To update everyone, Harper's pleas to the Governal General to suspend parliament for six weeks has been granted, meaning he has six more weeks to scrounge up some more BS to save his ass while he waits for the coalition to break apart. You know, I really can't stand Harper and I wanted to see what the coalition could do to change things. I'm not saying they would, and I'm not saying they wouldn't have fucked things up. But really, could they have been worse than Harper?
But the thing that sort of annoys me is that the GG talked to Harper for two and a half hours today and granted his wish to suspend parliament without talking to Dion/Layton. How is that fair? She heard one side of the story and not the other. If one is going to argue that we already know how they feel, then we know how Harper felt and she didn't even need to cut short her European vacation.
Anyway, just to fuck with Harper, I hope they stay strong and continue to push in late January. As someone said elsewhere, Harper can run but he can't hide.
_________________ Ecks Factor: Cancelled too soon
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:32 pm |
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Mister Ecks
New Server, Same X
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:07 pm Posts: 28301 Location: ... siiiigh...
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
By the way, a Liberal MP has said that there are already cracks showing in the coalition, according to CTV.ca, but it sounds more like he's just against the idea of the coalition to begin with. CTV loves a good headline to grab the reader.
_________________ Ecks Factor: Cancelled too soon
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:36 pm |
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Neostorm
All Star Poster
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:48 pm Posts: 4684 Location: Toronto
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
The Liberals need to elect a new leader ASAP and call a new election. Just choose Ignatief and they could win a re-election. Don't choose Rae.
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:53 pm |
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Mannyisthebest
Forum General
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:53 pm Posts: 8642 Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
Quote: Manny is being senselessly dramatic. Oh I just wanted to grab attention to Canadian political issues and I think I was successful in drawing in Americans as well. So, I just did it to get some real discussion about Canadian politics in this forum, which mind you can be just as "entertaining" or serious. I was sure Harper would suspend Parliament. I think the Liberals should chill out, pick a new leader and fight from there. It would be a much safer route but a way to get long term power.
_________________The Dark Prince 
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Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:18 am |
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Cotton
Some days I'm a super bitch
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:22 pm Posts: 6645
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
dolcevita wrote: :wacko:
I'm a bit (read: a lot) behind here, but as I interpret it, the rest of the budget suggestions also seemed so crap that those alone should have led to serious questions about competency. Yes, and the fact that the coalition probably won't stick around until January 27th (when Parliament resumes) just goes to show that it probably wouldn't have been a very successful government. But that's not the point, really. Harper went to the GG to suspend Parliament for no other reason than to avoid a vote of non-confidence because he knew he would lose. That's almost like a President shutting down Congress on the eve of being impeached. It sets a horrible precedent regardless of how you look at it. What depresses me most is how this episode has shown how ignorant a lot of Canadians are regarding our Parliamentary system. A lot of Conservative supporters (even the PM himself!) were calling this movement undemocratic and unconstitutional (umm, it's not). They really don't understand the difference between a minority and majority parliament and what it entails for the governing party. It's really sad.  EDIT - Sorry, I just saw that you were referring to the Conservative budget, not what the Coalition was proposing. Yeah, you could debate it either way I suppose. Basically, the Coalition wanted the government to get involved more quickly in regards to the economic meltdown while the Conservatives wanted to wait things out. The Cons also threw some other partisan jabs (banning the right to strike for gov workers for a few years, not allowing women to sue for pay equity) that the some opposition members took issue with.
Last edited by Cotton on Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:19 am |
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Cotton
Some days I'm a super bitch
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:22 pm Posts: 6645
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 Re: Coup d'etat in Canada! National Unity Crisis hits!
Gulli wrote: I mean lay it out for me here, if they formed a government they must have at least made some deal with Independents or a minor smaller party. hell thats how Irish politic's has worked since 1997 and the end of the Rainbow Coalition. You've seriously underestimated the partisan nature of our current PM. He knows that the opposition parties are weak, have no money, and would lose big time in another election. Instead of reaching out to them, he's been hanging the threat of calling an election over their heads in order to get them to vote for things that they otherwise wouldn't vote for. What he didn't anticipate was that they would put their differences aside and team up to form a coalition on their own. Seriously, he is a HUGE asshole and has been doing this for nearly three years now. I shudder when I think of the things he would be capable of with a majority.
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Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:55 am |
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getluv
i break the rules, so i don't care
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 4:28 pm Posts: 20411
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 Re: Prime Minister Harper Suspends Parliament!!!
the Queen has little-to-no power in Canada.
However, the GG (appointed by the Queen) can dismiss the Prime Minister at any time. (it happened in Australia in the 1970s. So if i were the other parties i would put the pressure on this).
having said this, this is really bad for Canada either way.
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Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:33 am |
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Mannyisthebest
Forum General
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:53 pm Posts: 8642 Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Re: Prime Minister Harper Suspends Parliament!!!
Yeah I remember some guy on TV talking about the GG dismissing the sitting PM in Australia in 1975.
His supporters were pissed off but still lost the election.
However, the opposite would happen here.
Harper enjoys huge amounts of support outside of Urban ridings.
_________________The Dark Prince 
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Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:41 pm |
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getluv
i break the rules, so i don't care
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 4:28 pm Posts: 20411
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 Re: Prime Minister Harper Suspends Parliament!!!
its like a dictatorship atm.
anyway, if i was the coalition i would just wait until the end of January. in the meantime, the economy is just going to keep getting worse in Canada.
Canada was meant to be that private place, that you didn't hear a whisper from them. now it feels like they are having Thailand-like problems.
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Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:45 pm |
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