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 March 4th Championships 
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
My thoughts:

-This shows once again that Obama CANNOT win the bigger, diverse states.
-Clinton needs to win PA to get the nomination. Very good chance. The GOV has endorsed her like in OH, and OH and PA are pretty similar.
-Clinton will do better against McCain in the big swing states, like OH. What was it? No candidate in like a hundred years have won the nomination without OH, and no candidate has won the general election without OH for nearly as long?
-Just like the Exit Polls said, Obama simply is NOT clear on where he stands on the issues. Yes, a website may list where he stands, but he never speaks about them, unlike Clinton.
-Obama isn't capable of delivering the KO blows needed. If he couldn't do it again against Clinton, March 4th was like the third chance for him to get the nomination, but he failed, again. When he knocks his opponent down, he gives them way too much room to stand back up again. What else do you need!? He won every primary since FEB 5th by big margins, raised loads more cash, more endorsments, etc. And it's because of the campagin he has to run. He can't go too negative, or aggressive.



Also, Obama and his supporters talking about how Clinton can't win enough delegates to get the nomination are forgetting Obama can't either. He will retain his pledged delegate lead, but he isn't going to win every state from here on out, and Clinton should be able to close the gap a little more with a PA win. So the Superdelegates will be the force to push one of them over 2025, because it looks like they will both be around 1800 or so at the end. So who will the superdelegates to with? Who won the popular vote in their state, who has the most pledged delegates all together, or who they feel will do better in a general election. I think this favors Clinton big time. She can argue she can win the big states, as well as the swing states, like OH. Winning OH alone would prevent McCain from the win this NOV. Obama will argue that he can win in the little red states, BUT! They haven't went DEM in over 50 years or something. It's going to be very hard to convince them he can suddenly change them. And winning a few of them, wouldn't be important if he loses Flordia or Ohio.

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Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:42 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
I just pointed it out because it sums up exactly where things stand. The media puts Obama in the spotlight, followed by Hillary, and tucks McCain into a corner.

You can say it's trivial, but why do it? Why not just divide it equally into thirds?

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Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:43 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
CNN now has a cool Democratic delegate counter game up, allowing you to slide counters and figure out where the nominees would land in delegate counts based on how many delegates you think they will win in the remaining states. Pretty neat.

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Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:45 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
Ericka wrote:
My thoughts:

-This shows once again that Obama CANNOT win the bigger, diverse states.
-Clinton needs to win PA to get the nomination. Very good chance. The GOV has endorsed her like in OH, and OH and PA are pretty similar.
-Clinton will do better against McCain in the big swing states, like OH. What was it? No candidate in like a hundred years have won the nomination without OH, and no candidate has won the general election without OH for nearly as long?
-Just like the Exit Polls said, Obama simply is NOT clear on where he stands on the issues. Yes, a website may list where he stands, but he never speaks about them, unlike Clinton.
-Obama isn't capable of delivering the KO blows needed. If he couldn't do it again against Clinton, March 4th was like the third chance for him to get the nomination, but he failed, again. When he knocks his opponent down, he gives them way too much room to stand back up again. What else do you need!? He won every primary since FEB 5th by big margins, raised loads more cash, more endorsments, etc. And it's because of the campagin he has to run. He can't go too negative, or aggressive.



Also, Obama and his supporters talking about how Clinton can't win enough delegates to get the nomination are forgetting Obama can't either. He will retain his pledged delegate lead, but he isn't going to win every state from here on out, and Clinton should be able to close the gap a little more with a PA win. So the Superdelegates will be the force to push one of them over 2025, because it looks like they will both be around 1800 or so at the end. So who will the superdelegates to with? Who won the popular vote in their state, who has the most pledged delegates all together, or who they feel will do better in a general election. I think this favors Clinton big time. She can argue she can win the big states, as well as the swing states, like OH. Winning OH alone would prevent McCain from the win this NOV. Obama will argue that he can win in the little red states, BUT! They haven't went DEM in over 50 years or something. It's going to be very hard to convince them he can suddenly change them. And winning a few of them, wouldn't be important if he loses Flordia or Ohio.


You ask why Obama can't knock his opponents out. It could be the fact that he doesn't take cheap shots like she does. Like siding with John McCain in an effort to make Obama look bad. Or bringing up the Rezko thing even though her husband got paid $20 million by the Emir of Dubai for a supposed "buyout" even though the Clintons are STILL to this day the Emir's personal financial advisers. Obama will not hit her on this like she does with him, and that's why he never delivers knockout blows. Negativity worked for Hillary in Ohio and Texas.


Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:50 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
All it shows is that Ohioans are susceptible to fear politics but we already knew that from the 2000 and 2004 elections.

Quote:
You ask why Obama can't knock his opponents out. It could be the fact that he doesn't take cheap shots like she does.
Exactly, Redbird. But he may be forced to by her tactics.

AP is reporting this:

A senior Obama adviser, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Obama's team will respond to Tuesday's results by going negative on Clinton -- raising questions about her tax records and the source of donations to the Clinton presidential library, among skeletons in the Clintons' past.


Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:51 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
That's a badddd move on Obama's part if true. You can't run as this candidate of change, this person who wants to change Washington, and then go and do the same crap all other politicians do, it just looks soooo hypocritical.

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Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:53 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
Eagle wrote:
That's a badddd move on Obama's part if true. You can't run as this candidate of change, this person who wants to change Washington, and then go and do the same crap all other politicians do, it just looks soooo hypocritical.

For the first time in a while I agree with you, that's not the right move.

What I think he should do is just start calling her the insider's candidate (which objectively speaking, she is, her main strength is power brokers and old ties), and highlight how much money she has openly accepted from lobbyists.

edited for confusing phrasing. :)


Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:57 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
redfirebird2008 wrote:
Ericka wrote:
My thoughts:

-This shows once again that Obama CANNOT win the bigger, diverse states.
-Clinton needs to win PA to get the nomination. Very good chance. The GOV has endorsed her like in OH, and OH and PA are pretty similar.
-Clinton will do better against McCain in the big swing states, like OH. What was it? No candidate in like a hundred years have won the nomination without OH, and no candidate has won the general election without OH for nearly as long?
-Just like the Exit Polls said, Obama simply is NOT clear on where he stands on the issues. Yes, a website may list where he stands, but he never speaks about them, unlike Clinton.
-Obama isn't capable of delivering the KO blows needed. If he couldn't do it again against Clinton, March 4th was like the third chance for him to get the nomination, but he failed, again. When he knocks his opponent down, he gives them way too much room to stand back up again. What else do you need!? He won every primary since FEB 5th by big margins, raised loads more cash, more endorsments, etc. And it's because of the campagin he has to run. He can't go too negative, or aggressive.



Also, Obama and his supporters talking about how Clinton can't win enough delegates to get the nomination are forgetting Obama can't either. He will retain his pledged delegate lead, but he isn't going to win every state from here on out, and Clinton should be able to close the gap a little more with a PA win. So the Superdelegates will be the force to push one of them over 2025, because it looks like they will both be around 1800 or so at the end. So who will the superdelegates to with? Who won the popular vote in their state, who has the most pledged delegates all together, or who they feel will do better in a general election. I think this favors Clinton big time. She can argue she can win the big states, as well as the swing states, like OH. Winning OH alone would prevent McCain from the win this NOV. Obama will argue that he can win in the little red states, BUT! They haven't went DEM in over 50 years or something. It's going to be very hard to convince them he can suddenly change them. And winning a few of them, wouldn't be important if he loses Flordia or Ohio.


You ask why Obama can't knock his opponents out. It could be the fact that he doesn't take cheap shots like she does. Like siding with John McCain in an effort to make Obama look bad. Or bringing up the Rezko thing even though her husband got paid $20 million by the Emir of Dubai for a supposed "buyout" even though the Clintons are STILL to this day the Emir's personal financial advisers. Obama will not hit her on this like she does with him, and that's why he never delivers knockout blows. Negativity worked for Hillary in Ohio and Texas.


Exactly. He doesn't have what it takes to win. He won't do what needs to be done. But the attacks and stuff int he final days before OH and TX weren't all that negative really. Negative, sure, but nothing too negative. Basically just telling people to take a second look before you decide.

So Obama is in a tough place right now. He can continue his current strategy and stay above everything, while Clinton keeps attacking him, and risk her gaining more momentum from last night, and losing his appeal. Or he can step up the attacks, and risk what his entire campaign is about. Clinton has also hurt Obama with the Red Phone ads if he ends up beating her. It hurt Obama in TX against Clinton, and would more than likely hurt him against Obama everywhere else against McCain. She is weaking his strength against McCain.

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Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:03 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
Eagle wrote:
That's a badddd move on Obama's part if true. You can't run as this candidate of change, this person who wants to change Washington, and then go and do the same crap all other politicians do, it just looks soooo hypocritical.


Bullshit. She's run all-out character assassination on his integrity. Her refusal to release her tax returns and the $20 million deal with Bill and Dubai WILL come up in the general election. Might as well get it out of the way now.


Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:03 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
whats absolutly hilarious is depsite these appearent, she is still down by over 100 delegates :hahaha:

I love how people have gone from calling these "must win states or shes done" to "major combeack for Hillary".

I find it funny because she lead by 15 points or more in both states 2 weeks ago; she was obviously expected to win the popular votes. As I said before, his lead in delegates and popular votes is virtually impossible for her to top, and whoeve rhas those will win the nomination at the convention.

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Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:05 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
What's even funnier is that Wyoming and Mississippi could go heavily to Barack and cancel out her 15-17 delegate gains from last night.


Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:07 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
And give me a break. Obama has what it takes to win. Hillary had 15 point leads in both of these states 2 weeks ago. The fact he had only lost Texas by 3% shows just how effective he was in his campaigning there.

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Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:07 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
Mista Nasty Time wrote:
And give me a break. Obama has what it takes to win. Hillary had 15 point leads in both of these states 2 weeks ago. The fact he had only lost Texas by 3% shows just how effective he was in his campaigning there.


Bigger than that actually. 25 in Ohio and 20 in Texas.


Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:09 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
Mista Nasty Time wrote:
whats absolutly hilarious is depsite these appearent, she is still down by over 100 delegates :hahaha:

I love how people have gone from calling these "must win states or shes done" to "major combeack for Hillary".

I find it funny because she lead by 15 points or more in both states 2 weeks ago; she was obviously expected to win the popular votes. As I said before, his lead in delegates and popular votes is virtually impossible for her to top, and whoeve rhas those will win the nomination at the convention.



She isnt down over 100. The latest official count is 1515 to 1424.

You forget the states that she has won Excel. OH, FL, MA, CA, TX, NJ, are much more important in general elections than Idaho or North Dakota. Winning the popular vote doesn't mean you will win in the general election, nor does winning it in a primary race.

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“Gods are great ... but the heart is greater. For it is from our hearts they come, and to our hearts they shall return.”
“We were like gods at the dawning of the world, & our joy was so bright we could see nothing else but the other.”
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
“You have to pretend you get an endgame. You have to carry on like you will; otherwise, you can't carry on at all.”
"Paper is dead without words / Ink idle without a poem / All the world dead without stories."


Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:10 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
Mista Nasty Time wrote:
And give me a break. Obama has what it takes to win. Hillary had 15 point leads in both of these states 2 weeks ago. The fact he had only lost Texas by 3% shows just how effective he was in his campaigning there.


Meanwhile, I really want to see the breakdown of Republican votes for the Texas Dem primary. I read that they made up 10% of the vote, but I have not seen who they went with. Limbaugh, Hannity, and the other right wing radio guys have been telling their listeners to vote for Hillary. In Texas that might have made a difference.


Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:11 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
redfirebird2008 wrote:
Mista Nasty Time wrote:
And give me a break. Obama has what it takes to win. Hillary had 15 point leads in both of these states 2 weeks ago. The fact he had only lost Texas by 3% shows just how effective he was in his campaigning there.


Meanwhile, I really want to see the breakdown of Republican votes for the Texas Dem primary. I read that they made up 10% of the vote, but I have not seen who they went with. Limbaugh, Hannity, and the other right wing radio guys have been telling their listeners to vote for Hillary. In Texas that might have made a difference.



CNN said 53-47 in Obama's favor.

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“Gods are great ... but the heart is greater. For it is from our hearts they come, and to our hearts they shall return.”
“We were like gods at the dawning of the world, & our joy was so bright we could see nothing else but the other.”
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
“You have to pretend you get an endgame. You have to carry on like you will; otherwise, you can't carry on at all.”
"Paper is dead without words / Ink idle without a poem / All the world dead without stories."


Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:12 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
Ericka wrote:
redfirebird2008 wrote:
Mista Nasty Time wrote:
And give me a break. Obama has what it takes to win. Hillary had 15 point leads in both of these states 2 weeks ago. The fact he had only lost Texas by 3% shows just how effective he was in his campaigning there.


Meanwhile, I really want to see the breakdown of Republican votes for the Texas Dem primary. I read that they made up 10% of the vote, but I have not seen who they went with. Limbaugh, Hannity, and the other right wing radio guys have been telling their listeners to vote for Hillary. In Texas that might have made a difference.



CNN said 53-47 in Obama's favor.


Ah OK. That's what I was expecting before the Limbaugh stuff started, so that's good to hear. At least he didn't impact it.


Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:13 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
Mista Nasty Time wrote:
And give me a break. Obama has what it takes to win. Hillary had 15 point leads in both of these states 2 weeks ago. The fact he had only lost Texas by 3% shows just how effective he was in his campaigning there.


Indeed. You never know -- perhaps another week and he would have beat her.

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Post Re: March 4th Championships
Groucho wrote:
Mista Nasty Time wrote:
And give me a break. Obama has what it takes to win. Hillary had 15 point leads in both of these states 2 weeks ago. The fact he had only lost Texas by 3% shows just how effective he was in his campaigning there.


Indeed. You never know -- perhaps another week and he would have beat her.


except that CNN said 61% of the votes who made up their minds in the last 3 days went with hillary, not barack.


Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:27 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
Some of the most recent polls had Obama winning Texas; I also remember there being a delegate breakdown website which showed Obama winning the delegate race, even if he lost the popular vote, based on his strongholds. And now it looks like Obama has lost both the popular vote and the delegate vote in the Texas primaries, which really surprises me.

Recent Ohio polls also had Clinton barely winning, and Obama narrowing in. But she won that state more convincingly than the polls indicated.

So, while Obama during his momentum surge was no doubt narrowing Hillary's lead greatly, he took a step back ultimately in this past week and from the latest polls. If Hillary can take the momentum away and keep it, then she could still get the nomination.

This is ultimately still only in the back of my mind however, since I still think Obama will win the nomination. And I'm glad that Clinton is not dropping out, because even if she doesn't manage to win, I consider the close and thus prolonged race to be a really good thing for Obama. He needs this experience to toughen him up for the general election. Obama having to fight for the win will only make him better for the general election, in my opinion, and give him even better odds at crushing McCain.

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Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:30 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
Ericka wrote:
My thoughts:
-Clinton will do better against McCain in the big swing states, like OH. What was it? No candidate in like a hundred years have won the nomination without OH, and no candidate has won the general election without OH for nearly as long?


No Republican has ever won the White House without winning Ohio, and for the past 100 years, only two presidents have lost Ohio: FDR in his fourth term and JFK. Both died in office, coincidentaly.


Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:34 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... nce-claim/

Finally, Obama is challenging her experience claims. I've been saying it all along that I thought it was a crock of BS. Her 35 year claim for one thing is very misleading. She graduated from law school 35 years ago, and much of her time was spent as a corporate lawyer and later on the board at Wal-Mart. She essentially has around 15 years of experience, though her First Lady experience gets overplayed when you consider a New York Times article that revealed her role was not necessarily as important as a lot of people think.


Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:40 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
Chris wrote:
Ericka wrote:
My thoughts:
-Clinton will do better against McCain in the big swing states, like OH. What was it? No candidate in like a hundred years have won the nomination without OH, and no candidate has won the general election without OH for nearly as long?


No Republican has ever won the White House without winning Ohio, and for the past 100 years, only two presidents have lost Ohio: FDR in his fourth term and JFK. Both died in office, coincidentaly.

To be fair, neither party's candidate has ever been black or a woman either. If there's ever been a election for breaking precedents, this is going to be it.


Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:43 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
From CNN on Bush endorsing McCain after clinching the Republican nomination:

Quote:
But Democratic strategist and CNN contributor Paul Begala said his party is happy to see McCain get the nomination -- and happy to see anything the senator does that links him more closely with the Republican president.

"He's embraced the Bush tax cuts that he voted against. He was against them being temporary; now he wants them being permanent. That's like marrying a girl you didn't want to date. He is rushed to Bush's Social Security plan, even disavowing his own Social Security plan on his own Web site. He has now become Bush's third term," Begala said.

Begala called McCain's victory speech Tuesday night "an eloquent but not very energetic defense of the status quo."

"Democrats heard that speech and loved it," he said. "To quote our current president, bring it on."


:D

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Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:46 pm
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Post Re: March 4th Championships
Groucho wrote:
Mista Nasty Time wrote:
And give me a break. Obama has what it takes to win. Hillary had 15 point leads in both of these states 2 weeks ago. The fact he had only lost Texas by 3% shows just how effective he was in his campaigning there.


Indeed. You never know -- perhaps another week and he would have beat her.


That seems highly unlikely, since he won 60-40% in early voting (which ended up being about 30% of the total votes) and then lost by 55-45% on the election day voting. According to CNN or MSNBC, Clinton won 60-40% of voters that made up their mind in the last three days.

About my post last night, it was late and I might not have been as clear as I should have been. I was stating Obama generally doesn't win in those states that have primaries without large AA populations. Sure he has won in states like Connecticut, Vermont and a few others that held primaries (as Xia stated Kansas was a caucus). However, take Connecticut as an example. Ned Lamont won the primary in 2006 and then lost the general election to Lieberman. In some of these states the primary and caucus voters are not a good reflection of the voters in the Fall. They are too liberal and their candidates can't win in the Fall. I think Obama is very similiar to Lamont. Clinton is built more for the GE and Obama built more for the Primaries, IMHO.

The total votes was wrong. I had heard the RCP number, but didn't realize it included Michigan and Florida. Sorry, it was late. I gotta get on the road. Take care everyone, good luck to all.

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