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Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!
https://www.worldofkj.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=58916
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Author:  Chippy [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Do you think nobody pays taxes?

Author:  Krem [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Chipo DiCaprio wrote:
Do you think nobody pays taxes?

Of course not; but people who actually see the effect of higher taxes in their paychecks are usually a lot more upset regarding government waste and generally dislike having their taxes raised.

Author:  Chippy [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

I did not dislike having my taxes raised.

Author:  Caius [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Chipo DiCaprio wrote:
I did not dislike having my taxes raised.

When were your taxes raised, at least on the federal level?

Author:  Tyler [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Krem wrote:
And no, Philly does not have a blog tax. What Philly has is a Business Privilege tax - any business that is located in Philadelphia has to pay a tax on gross receipts - professional bloggers are no exception. Of course you will justify that tax somehow (think of all the fantastic services city of Philadelphia provides to its citizens!! I mean we have trash collection and sometimes even the snow will get cleaned), but the reality is that it is one of the reasons why many businesses avoid setting up shop here.


Has the tax brought in enough revenue to offset the business that didn't come? I'm guessing no. There are qualitative differences of course too. Taxes are a nuanced subject and should probably be done in certain cycles, yes, I'm just tired of reading Teahadist fiscal inanity lately and get testy.

Author:  Chippy [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Caius wrote:
Chipo DiCaprio wrote:
I did not dislike having my taxes raised.

When were your taxes raised, at least on the federal level?


When they were raised.

Author:  Krem [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Tyler wrote:
Has the tax brought in enough revenue to offset the business that didn't come? I'm guessing no.

How would you go about quantifying that effect? More importantly, why is it relevant? Is the justification for any tax in the trade-offs that it creates?
Tyler wrote:
There are qualitative differences of course too. Taxes are a nuanced subject and should probably be done in certain cycles, yes

What you just said is completely meaningless.

Tyler wrote:
I'm just tired of reading Teahadist fiscal inanity lately and get testy.

As opposed to Mr. I don't pay any taxes yet I feel completely justified in making fun of people who are against raising them.

Got it!

Author:  Krem [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Chipo DiCaprio wrote:
Caius wrote:
Chipo DiCaprio wrote:
I did not dislike having my taxes raised.

When were your taxes raised, at least on the federal level?


When they were raised.

Federal income taxes haven't been increased since before you were in grade school.

Author:  Argos [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Krem wrote:
As opposed to Mr. I don't pay any taxes yet I feel completely justified in making fun of people who are against raising them.

Do these ad hominem arguments usually work for you?

Author:  Chippy [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Krem wrote:
Chipo DiCaprio wrote:
Caius wrote:
Chipo DiCaprio wrote:
I did not dislike having my taxes raised.

When were your taxes raised, at least on the federal level?


When they were raised.

Federal income taxes haven't been increased since before you were in grade school.


When they were raised.

Author:  Krem [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Argos wrote:
Krem wrote:
As opposed to Mr. I don't pay any taxes yet I feel completely justified in making fun of people who are against raising them.

Do these ad hominem arguments work usually work for you?

That was not an ad hominem (fancy Latin term gets italicized), but nice try! :thumbsup:

Author:  Argos [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

I think it was, at least in the making.

Author:  Krem [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Argos wrote:
I think it was, at least in the making.

You think incorrectly.

Author:  Tyler [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Krem wrote:
How would you go about quantifying that effect? More importantly, why is it relevant? Is the justification for any tax in the trade-offs that it creates?


Uh, yeah? Isn't that most policy humans agree to set forth, justification based on trade-offs?

Quote:
What you just said is completely meaningless.


I'm not sure I remember what I meant either. Quaaludes cloud my thinking.

Krem wrote:
As opposed to Mr. I don't pay any taxes yet I feel completely justified in making fun of people who are against raising them.

Got it!


Yeah, I'm living the high life. No, I'm against raising it for anyone that isn't in the top 2%. That real wages have stagnated at best for all but the wealthy since the 70s is not a coincidence. Economic inequality and staggered social mobility is a hell of a good way to perpetuate long-term societal instability.

Author:  Krem [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Tyler wrote:
Krem wrote:
How would you go about quantifying that effect? More importantly, why is it relevant? Is the justification for any tax in the trade-offs that it creates?


Uh, yeah? Isn't that most policy humans agree to set forth, justification based on trade-offs?

Does the first question go unanswered then?

To answer the second point: any tax that is levied will lead to reduced economic activity; the reduction in economic activity will always be higher than the revenue the tax raises - and this is without accounting for government waste. So, by your logic, ALL taxes should be abandoned due to negative tradeoffs. That is something that I would welcome, of course, but I doubt that's where you were going with it.

Tyler wrote:
Yeah, I'm living the high life. No, I'm against raising it for anyone that isn't in the top 2%.


Why the top 2%? Why not 3, 5, 10, 25 or 50? What's so magical about that percentage?
Tyler wrote:
That real wages have stagnated at best for all but the wealthy since the 70s is not a coincidence.

That's just not true, but even if it were, the statement does not take into account lowered taxation, because wages are considered before-tax. And taxes have indeed decreased for all the groups. Additionally, inflation affects people in the lower income levels less than people who are richer - something that real wage growth statistics do not take into account.

Tyler wrote:
Economic inequality and staggered social mobility is a hell of a good way to perpetuate long-term societal instability.

Are you seriously suggesting that society today is less stable than at any point between the 60's and the 90's? Sheesh!

Author:  Tyler [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

How would it be implemented? I have no clue. Could it be implemented? No idea.

No, I am trying to say policy is generally based when weighing positive, negative, neutral and mixed trade-offs.

Top 2% for obvious reasons.

And yes, that's true. Christ, even the Mises Institute has acknowledged this shit. A bunch of real reds there.

And no, I didn't say that. It is indisputably a factor, it is not in itself an inevitable cause nor will its effects always be visible immediately in some or many forms.

Author:  Krem [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Tyler wrote:
How would it be implemented? I have no clue. Could it be implemented? No idea.

What are you talking about? All I asked about was how it could be quantified, not if the effect could be implemented.
Tyler wrote:
No, I am trying to say policy is generally based when weighing positive, negative, neutral and mixed trade-offs.

Great! So now that we've established that taxation has negative economic effects that outweigh positive taxation revenue, are you onboard with getting rid of taxation altogether?
Tyler wrote:
Top 2% for obvious reasons.

Which are?
Tyler wrote:
And yes, that's true. Christ, even the Mises Institute has acknowledged this shit. A bunch of real reds there.

Here's the real wage chart from 1967 to 2003. As you can see your original statement is NOT true. And this is BEFORE taking into account lower taxation and the fact that inflation has a lower impact on the poor than on the rich.
Image

Tyler wrote:
And no, I didn't say that. It is indisputably a factor, it is not in itself an inevitable cause nor will its effects always be visible immediately in some or many forms.

So how do you explain the fact that as income inequality has increased, societal stability has also increased? What are the other factors that are accounting for this seeming discrepancy?

Author:  Tyler [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Krem wrote:
What are you talking about? All I asked about was how it could be quantified, not if the effect could be implemented.


Not sure. Anyone here that does these studies for a living?

Krem wrote:
Great! So now that we've established that taxation has negative economic effects that outweigh positive taxation revenue, are you onboard with getting rid of taxation altogether?


Oh yeah, I was clearly talking about all taxes.

Krem wrote:
Which are?


Best way to get cash?

Tyler wrote:
Here's the real wage chart from 1967 to 2003. As you can see your original statement is NOT true. And this is BEFORE taking into account lower taxation and the fact that inflation has a lower impact on the poor than on the rich.
Image


Where's the top 2%? A less than 15%-looking (I hate tiny graphs like this) increase compared to the 50% increase for the 95 percentile doesn't count as stagnation? 15% over 30 years for the 50 percentile is pretty meager. When you go higher than 5%, it's even worse. 27 times to 300 times for executives, for example, since 1980. I fully blame the slash-taxes-for-the-rich-and-spend-wildly policies of Raygun. And since you want to take in external factors, how about debt and loansharking or that the real inflation of necessities have outstripped the dollar's inflation?

Krem wrote:
So how do you explain the fact that as income inequality has increased, societal stability has also increased? What are the other factors that are accounting for this seeming discrepancy?


A decrease in racial tension since the 60s? Technological and culture developments? Having a strong dictatorship? EI certainly has hurt Latin America. Chile's solid development (and probably less drug transport, and having a smaller population) from economic liberalization has kept it from looking like Brazil or Mexico, though if infrastructure starts decaying or it starts to fall behind its neighbors, this can change. The income inequality is already there. The smog in Santiago looks a bit less toxic than that of Cairo. What's to stop this from happening in America? We've got the income inequality that isn't stopping, plenty of people left behind by de-industrialization, overcrowded prisons, and a sturdy illicit materials culture. We just need the inequality to continue to increase and to be surpassed in average health, infrastructure and quality of life by former and current monarchies and authoritarian states. Oh wait, that's already happened in a few cases and the rest isn't far away. That the economy and energy squeeze will make the next twenty years very painful won't help.

Author:  Argos [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Did Tyler win?

Author:  snack [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

think so

celebrate?

Author:  Argos [ Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

The Enfrenchment of Nico.

Author:  Krem [ Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Argos wrote:
Did Tyler win?

:) yes, by virtue of having posted last

Author:  Argos [ Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

And all its implications.

Author:  Krem [ Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

Argos wrote:
And all its implications.

Were you trying to say something?

Author:  Argos [ Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Obama says the Dems really know what they are doing!!!!

I did say something.

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