Does anyone here have Socialist leanings?
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Beeblebrox
All Star Poster
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:40 pm Posts: 4679
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 Re: Does anyone here have Socialist leanings?
Krem wrote: Oh and before you jump all over that and give me yet another example of 'OMG what about public schools?', I'll clarify - I'm talking about for-profit enterprise here.
There are only two examples of this in the U.S. that I can think of: USPS and Amtrak. Are you not aware that there are for-profit schools? And do you not support the idea of for-profit schools?
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Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:39 pm |
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Krem
Cream of the Crop
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:04 pm Posts: 2035 Location: Citizens Bank Park
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 Re: Does anyone here have Socialist leanings?
Beeblebrox wrote: Krem wrote: Oh and before you jump all over that and give me yet another example of 'OMG what about public schools?', I'll clarify - I'm talking about for-profit enterprise here.
There are only two examples of this in the U.S. that I can think of: USPS and Amtrak. Are you not aware that there are for-profit schools? And do you not support the idea of for-profit schools? Absolutely I do (on both counts). The government, however, doesn't run public schools as for profit organizations.
_________________ Let's go Phillies.
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Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:42 pm |
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Beeblebrox
All Star Poster
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:40 pm Posts: 4679
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 Re: Does anyone here have Socialist leanings?
Krem wrote: [Absolutely I do (on both counts). The government, however, doesn't run public schools as for profit organizations. I'm not trying to harp on this, but I'm trying to get at your distinction for what constitutes socialism. I don't agree that the government run industry has to necessarily be a for-profit business for it to count. I haven't really seen anything to that effect and it wasn't in your original definition. That was about public ownership for benefit. Do you mean public benefit as in the public benefits from the windfall?
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Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:49 pm |
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Krem
Cream of the Crop
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:04 pm Posts: 2035 Location: Citizens Bank Park
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 Re: Does anyone here have Socialist leanings?
Beeblebrox wrote: Krem wrote: [Absolutely I do (on both counts). The government, however, doesn't run public schools as for profit organizations. I'm not trying to harp on this, but I'm trying to get at your distinction for what constitutes socialism. I don't agree that the government run industry has to necessarily be a for-profit business for it to count. I haven't really seen anything to that effect and it wasn't in your original definition. That was about public ownership for benefit. Do you mean public benefit as in the public benefits from the windfall? Socialism's point is to have an economic system where the people benefit by way of owning means of production. The thinking is that, for instance, the best way to run a car plant is to have the government (or people, if you prefer) own that plant - you don't waste money on "inefficiencies" such as marketing, executive salaries, etc. The goal is still, as in a capitalist economy, to add value by way of people's labor. The difference between this and a public school, is that a public school doesn't exist to add value to shareholders or the people; it exists for other purposes (ideally to educate young people; if you're into conspiracy theories - to subject them to a certain set of ideals). You may argue that it indirectly adds value, by producing valuable members of society, but that's not the goal. Public school systems exist in both socialist and capitalist economies - and the goals are remarkably similar.
_________________ Let's go Phillies.
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Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:00 am |
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Anita Hussein Briem
Yes we can call dibs on the mountain guide
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:47 pm Posts: 3290 Location: Houston
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 Re: Does anyone here have Socialist leanings?
Public schools are socialistic because their intent is to (theoretically) provide a level playing field for children of all demographic and economic origins.
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Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:50 am |
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Jedi Master Carr
Extraordinary
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:51 pm Posts: 11637
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 Re: Does anyone here have Socialist leanings?
Corpse wrote: insomniacdude wrote: Corpse wrote: Box wrote: Corpse wrote: I'm more for Direct Democracy ("This is where everyone is given the opportunity to participate in making all policy decisions.").
I'm not a big fan of Representative Democracy that we have in the US.
Allow us to represent ourselves, please. That's so ridiculous. No way! We are LAZY people. Apparently we no longer know what's best for us, and have to rely on other people (elected officials) to make our minds up for us, and make up the laws for us to follow. Let the people decide what's best for them, what policies to pass, cut out the middle (in it for himself, and not you) middle man. the system is currently set up so that a minority group is still represented. Strictly speaking, democracy is mob rule. If 51% of people want something that is wrong and marginalizes the other 49%, tough shit. We might as well submit to complete anarchy. It'll achieve the same damage with much greater efficiency. More than that, the amount of policy decisions that are made every day (think in your city, county, and state on top of the national level) would literally halt progress for the typical American. They would have to spend hours doing the research required to make the "right" votes. They'd have to spend hours now, yes, but not if they had to think and act for themselves like we should all been doing from day 1. If anything, it should be able to speed the process up. Instead of having a select few work on many issues (many of those issues being problems that haven't had any progress for decades), mainly due to the two party system that can't get over their disagreements, you would have many working on many issues together. I think many pass off the people as ignorant, who have no idea what's best for them, etc. The typical American should be deciding what's best for them directly, not through someone who thinks they know what is best for them. We let others solve our own problems too much. I am sorry but being a student of history, direct democracy doesn't work. It has only been successful one time in human history and that was Athens and that didn't last long. Democracies now are either Republics or Parliamentarian democracies. Both of them work fine. I do think we should get rid of the electoral college and elect presidents like France does. That would give the country more parties which would be a good thing. Direct democracy would just lead to anarchy because you get 300 million people in one room.
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Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:27 am |
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resident
Wall-E
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:25 pm Posts: 855
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 Re: Does anyone here have Socialist leanings?
When the average cost for a doctor is ~$80 just for the visit (office overhead: receptionist, nurse, doctor, malpractice insurance, and the real estate costs) before cost-of-tests and treatment, and then the tests are outsourced to a lab that charges for personnel, technicians, the real estate, and then the tests), it would be nice to cut out the middle man and just go to the lab, wouldn't it?
On that note, why not give tax exemptions for medical buildings, and maybe in exchange put price controls on the doctors while disallowing overcharges to cover malpractice payments, but would this constitute a socialism or would it serve for the purposes of enforcing fair profit regulation on the medical profession in a capitalist society? Why should capitalism be defined as a free-for-all? Why should conditional capitalism for the common good, including fair profit, be defined as socialism?
_________________ And he said to the lady, "I love the crushed eggs. Are they yours? To which the lady replied, "No. Not the eggs."
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Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:56 am |
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Mannyisthebest
Forum General
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:53 pm Posts: 8642 Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Re: Does anyone here have Socialist leanings?
Quote: the system is currently set up so that a minority group is still represented. Strictly speaking, democracy is mob rule. If 51% of people want something that is wrong and marginalizes the other 49%, tough shit. We might as well submit to complete anarchy. It'll achieve the same damage with much greater efficiency. isn't that what Human, Civil rights are for???
_________________The Dark Prince 
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Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:42 am |
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Tuukka
Indiana Jones IV
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:35 am Posts: 1830 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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 Re: Does anyone here have Socialist leanings?
Krem wrote: The difference between this and a public school, is that a public school doesn't exist to add value to shareholders or the people; it exists for other purposes (ideally to educate young people; if you're into conspiracy theories - to subject them to a certain set of ideals). You may argue that it indirectly adds value, by producing valuable members of society, but that's not the goal. Well, it's definitely the main goal here in Finland. Without the free public school system constantly creating new generations of highly educated professionals from all social classes, we would end up being a 3rd world country in a couple of decades. Then again, we don't really have any natural resources except timber, so it's the only way for us to survive. But I would imagine that USA would also like to be a highly educated nation, as highly educated nations tend to make a lot more money.
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Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:03 pm |
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insomniacdude
I just lost the game
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:00 pm Posts: 5868
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 Re: Does anyone here have Socialist leanings?
Mannyisthebest wrote: Quote: The system is currently set up so that a minority group is still represented. Strictly speaking, democracy is mob rule. If 51% of people want something that is wrong and marginalizes the other 49%, tough shit. We might as well submit to complete anarchy. It'll achieve the same damage with much greater efficiency. isn't that what Human, Civil rights are for??? It depends on how the civil rights are protected, if at all. If all of the policies are determined via the people, enough votes could guarantee that civil right infringement remains legal.
_________________
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Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:30 pm |
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Beeblebrox
All Star Poster
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:40 pm Posts: 4679
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 Re: Does anyone here have Socialist leanings?
Krem wrote: The difference between this and a public school, is that a public school doesn't exist to add value to shareholders or the people; it exists for other purposes (ideally to educate young people; if you're into conspiracy theories - to subject them to a certain set of ideals). You may argue that it indirectly adds value, by producing valuable members of society, but that's not the goal. I still disagree with this definition of socialism, although it's noteworthy that you probably don't view universal health care as socialism either.
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Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:51 pm |
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