I'm sorry, but this is funny.

Time magazine is owned by Time Warner, who also is... you guessed it, Warner Bros. (they are New Line too!)

"The Year of the Matrix" was (I believe) coined in 2002 December by Time Magazine, in a giant spread which was basically marketing for a trilogy that hadn't been released.

I just find it funny that you said Time magazine isn't WB marketing. I think you could make a case that Time magazine was being fair and balanced, but do you think... oh say... I dunno... The New Yorker or Rolling Stone was given that kind of access to the Matrix sequels that early?

I'm thinking not.

You obviously don't read a lot of my stuff. First off, you can't offend me. Period. Nothing you say will I ever take offense with and I openly encourage others to fire away at me. I like debating stupid stuff like this WAY too much. I have an aggressive debate style as anybody in the video game forum will tell you. If you don't like my style or are offended, I deeply apologize as it's not my attempt to piss anybody off, just a good old fashioned healthy debate.

I do try to stick to facts when arguing as personal opinion or "I talked to some people" type of evidence is so subjective and worthless in debates like this. I hear a lot of pure conjecture from people who pull facts out of the air, and will generally call them on it when I see it.

In your initial statement above you stated that "people HATED the second and third" installments of the Matrix (your caps, not mine). You then go on to say that Terminator 3 is debatably a great film. I found that statement to be hypocritical as both performed very similarly in all gauges of public perception...Yahoo movie ratings, CinemaScore, IMDB, and Rotten Tomatoes. Both movies are almost dead on similar in all of those categories, with Matrix Reloaded having a slight edge when looking at all 3. You also offer no proof as to how you come about this conclusion of people generally hating Matrix Reloaded, and simply dismiss factual evidence such as IMDB and all other rating gauges. I think that is a valid question to pose to you as to how you're basing your opinion that people hate Matrix Reloaded, but that T3 is arguably a great film.

Good point...I hadn't thought of that. It is definitely possible that WB forced Time to print that, I guess. Either way, I still say nearly 2 billion in profits from the two movies in that year earned it that title. So, I fail to see what the point is.

Sorry if I missed your earlier post. I feel like 1 person against 50 (all my other Matrix backers seemed to flee the scene...them wusses!), but am doing my best to answer everyone with my perspective.

As it stands right now, I do not argue that the Matrix would not rate at #1 on the top trilogy list if voted on by the mass public. It certainly would be high and does have a large fan base that loved all 3 movies. The original hypothetical question was in the future which will stand the test of time and reign supreme. I also don't disagree that the Matrix would probably not rank #1 a few decades from now, but I maintain that anything is possible.

As for your assertion that Reloaded and Revolutions stained the 1st Matrix's good name, I can't really argue with you there. Everyone has a different opinion on that. There were a lot of people that will agree with you. There are also a lot that loved the sequels and it made them love the first even more. There is simply no way to gauge that type of thing.

The first one rocked after thsat it went down hill.

I totally feel the same way, in part I keep replying because well this is one of the rare intelligent disucssions I have had about The Matrix trilogy where I feel I can actually make my points without being confused for totally hating the trilogy or the Wachowski Bros.

Let me jsut add, I adore The Anamatrix, which I assume you saw. The short with the runner is my favorite and jsut brillant. The Anamatrix was my favorite part of the all the hoopla and stuff that came with the sequels. I went to see Dreamcatcher just to see Final FLight of Osiris which is just beautiful shot and also wonderful. Its far more erotic then most crappy porn, while also being tasteful and engaging. it has more plot and story then most movies, including Dreamcatcher :wink:



I LOVED the cliffhanger ending, in fact it was my favorite part of hte first flim. It was brillant to have Neo and Smith head to head and to Neo be nonethe wiser. I had several isseus with the second film, but the ending leftt me hopeful and wet my appetite for the next film. The ending was well thought out, and its bullocks that it sucked. It was how a movie what did the public expect. Complaints about other things in the movie, yes those I see, but the ending, I do not.

Algren can call Star wars six movies all he wants, but they are really two separate entities in the minds of many people. The OT was groundbreaking, the way that the youth today see movies made and marketed is becuase of Star Wars OT. So while he may think of htem as 6 movies, they really are connected, but it is easy to split down into two separate trilogies. Star Wars OT become the holy trilogy a long time ago, even witht he three new movies, it stil holds that place. So while i see his point, the OT has such a foothold in movie history as a trilogy these three new movies cannot really change that.



One question, did you ever read the books, did you see all three movies? Just curious.



I think it would have been a more interesting trilogy if they let Trinity die, but that is a good place to end actually. Also Trinity's first death scene is much better acted then the latter one in Revolutions which was just to long. Plus, after eeing her neraly die once, it was less emotional the second time.

But I agree, they were askign alot to have the hype machine last that long, and while I don't think the Wachowski Bros thought it would, the producer from WB that they interviewed came off as kind of cocky. It was a big gamble and I doubt anyone will try it again. Even filming them together and relasign them a year apart would have been a smarter idea. To summer releases may have led to a much different reaction, since the backlash wasin full force when revoultions came along. I think the critical reviews for Revolutions may still have been bad, but I think the box office would have been better.



I am tempted to listen to them. My problems with the move though lie not with what happened, I think peace with the machines and hwo it happened was a good ending, but it wa show we got their they I had problems with. For me the sequels introduced a boatload of new characters, most of which felt underdeveloped, and their screen time came at the expensive of dealing with characters I had grown to love and appreicate in the fisrt film. Everything Morpheus believed falls apart, and I felt like we were shortchanged with seeing him deal with that. His character lost alot between the first and second film to me. Alot of hte new characters while cool, felt superfluous (like the Ghost Twins). I thought the twins were badass, butcould they have bene cut from the movie and everything be intact yes. I sometimes wonder if one three epic movie might have been better then the two.



I watch them all, and I read alot of sci-fi as well. My favorite sci-fi film is Gattaca actually.



I think the concept of liked nto lvoed the sequels is what I meatn about The matrix. I think some people love the orginal and hate the sequels, some love all three, but I think overall the general opinion will be the orginal is awesome and the sequels are liked. So while people went out and gladly bought BTTF box set, including me, our nostaglia lies mostly with the first. Baically, I think the love of the first film will override alot of the hate that comes for the latter films from that portion of the populace, but I still think that backlash will prevent the films from being the top trilogy.

Also i think the special effects in the first film will age better then those in the latter film. When I watch the first film, as someone who has studied computer graphics, the effects stick otu more so because they are bulelt time then becuase I can pick out all the comptuer generated stuff. In the sequels, I can pick it out, it takes away a bit from the film.



That I can see, the sume of its paarts being orginal. I just hate when people don;t see that hte parts themselves are not that original 9save for the effects).
I just get annoyed with the younger generation who think that the wachowski's invented the idea of The Matrix or jacking in, as if these ideas were not around for decades. They need to read Necromancer, take a philosphy class and realize the WWachowski were taking ideas from several sources and combining them.

Much as JK Rowling takes elements from many adult fantasy novels to make the Harry Potter Series, The matrix has roots in Sci-Fi history and losts of philosphy.

People tend to be so simplistic (this is an oveall rant, I am not at all saying you are this way), that whatever they like is groundbreaking, adn what they heat is just easy to copy and unorginal. This drives me nuts. No respect for the past and what came before.



Heh, hobbits Tony, hobbits, but yes that scene is not very god, in part because the movie cuts out the development of their freindship. So its like why the fuck are thse mini peopel jumping around. FOTR for me had an emotional content to it that was dimemd int eh second LOTR film, and practically nonexistent int eh last film. But these problems exist in the book as well. I have things I love about LOTR adn things I hate, and that goes for the books and the movies.

I actually started posting at BOM so I could bitch about TTT being shitty.

There is nothing I hate more then this idea that you cannot criticize LOTR, its bullocks. So if you want to bitch about it to me, we can make a thread where you and I discuss LOTR.



At this point we are discussign The matrix, LOTR, SW...heck I found a way to through iin Harry potter, let's add those to!

ROTJ is decent, as a kid I liked it, then as a teen I was like meh, and now I like it, but it does nto compare to the first to for me. But I am ot happy wabout the insertion of Christensen in the jedi ghost scene, so I had to bitch about that. If Christensen were being serious like Yoda and Kenobi it owuld be fine, but he's laughing, looking down, being enbarassed..what kind of direction did lucas give him? "Stand there and act like a moron?" It just perplexes me.

Jeez Tony, sometimes you come out with more nonsense than a Wachowski brother's typewriter.

I honestly think the best comparison for public reaction here would be The Phantom Menace. A film which seemed to be fairly well received by critics (62% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes) and the public ($400+ million dollars domestic), but with the benefit of hindsight can be seen as the failure it always was.

At the time, a great deal of people were unwilling to admit to themselves that The Phantom Menace was poo (myself included... I went to see it three times at the cinema before I finally gave up pretending to love it), but now the general consensus is that the movie was and is a big pile of crap. The widespread denial at the time (brought on in part by fans and critics who were unable to separate their feelings for the originals) may have skewed the reviews and general perception on release more positively than it deserved, but even when it was knocking down all those box office records you could still sense that all wasn't right.

Now, in that sentence replace "The Phantom Menace" with "The Matrix Reloaded", change a few other things and read it again! Hell I'll do it for you!

At the time, a great deal of people were unwilling to admit to themselves that The Matrix Reloaded was poo (myself not included... I wasn't really that big a fan of the first if we're being honest), but now the general consensus is that the movie was and is a big pile of crap. The widespread denial at the time (brought on in part by fans and critics who were unable to separate their feelings for the original) may have skewed the reviews and general perception on release more positively than it deserved, but even when it was knocking down all those box office records you could still sense that all wasn't right.

Here's another sentence that you can mix and mingle about:

The eventual confirmation that public reaction wasn't as glowing as it seemed at the time came when the next film was released. Fans and audiences were more wary - as were critics - and the effect of the previous film showed up in the box office receipts. Attack of the Clones/The Matrix Revolutions performed far worse at the box office than The Phantom Menace/The Matrix Reloaded, showing that audiences had lost a lot of love for the franchise. But still today some die-hard fans/fan cling to the dream, fooling themselves/himself that the prequels/sequels are worthy of the Star Wars/Matrix name and spewing vitriol and useless "facts" at anyone who claims otherwise.

We've all done it Tony. Successful franchises and filmmakers with loyal fanbases can rest on their laurels to some extent, because they know fans and critics alike will take into account all their previous stuff before appraising new entries. They can get away with more because their franchise is so well loved that a lot of the flaws (ewoks, for example) can be glossed over. It'd take a truly monumental failure to knock a beloved franchise/filmmaker from their perch in the same way The Matrix and Star Wars has been. And even then the outcry would be muted due to a certain degree of denial.

It took me yonks to finally say that the Planet of the Apes remake was crap, just because I love Tim Burton's films so bloody much. At the time I was convinced that there must have been something I was missing about it. That it was me who was wrong, not the film. Had I written a review of Planet of the Apes back in 2001 it would've been very similar to a lot of the fresh reviews I quoted earlier for The Matrix Reloaded - "It's good! But it's a bit crap...". Now my review would just be a simple "It's crap" as I'm sure would be the case for many of the "positive" Matrix Reloaded review writers over at Rotten Tomatoes.

I've forgotten what I'm supposed to be writing about!! Can you believe I wrote this whole silly, babbling post in "quick reply"? How ironic! It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is one spoon...

The Matrix Revolutions was the best of the trilogy. =;

Yes! Except unlike many other filmmakers who combine and borrow ideas from other places, they don't actually offer anything new or interesting. They just seem to lump together ideas, philosophies and styles with a few pointless fight sequences and hope everything sticks. Every character is just a cipher waiting to be cracked (especially Cipher), every plot motion is a thinly veiled allegory, all the ideas, dialogues, names, scenes, philosophies and allegories get more and more contrived and disconnected until it almost seems like they're fresh and if you look hard enough, it'll all make sense!

welll since Starwars is basicly not a trilogy I would say its a cross between the lord of the rings and Back to the Future there both awesome trilogys and I watch them anytime I can I was to disapointed with the matrix sequals to say its best but it can easily make my top 5 :wink:

Well yes, I personally feel the sum of hte parts (when it comes to the sequels) fails to amoun to anything of interest. Their is an introduction of new character jsut because they are cool, fight scenes (Teh Chateau) that drag on just becasue they are cool. I felt alot of Reloaded could have been cut. As much as I love Monica Bellucci's breasts, her character sreved litle purpose,especially in Revolutions...the cub scene felt like a revist to the French Resturant with some rave thrown in for fun.

That said I at leat commend the attempt to make an R rated action film when so many are PG-13, and dumbed down. For the Wachowski it worked 1/3 times in my case. The Anamatrix was also excellent and Bound is a great film.

I don't even know where to start!

First off, let me just say while I love debating with the very rational Ripper who frequently makes good points based on facts, you just may be the polar opposite. But, I still love debating with you - it's just not as challenging!

First off your whole post above takes the stance that Matrix Reloaded is complete and utter crap and that anybody who likes it is unjustified in their feelings and is "fooling themselves" into liking it. You even enter more bizarre territory by asserting that most critics who loved it when it came out, would reverse course now and agree with you.

As long as we've entered an area where we can pull things out of our ass, I'd like to join in on this theory and leave reason and sanity behind for a few minutes. I'm glad you mentioned the above post, because it echoes my sentiments about Return of the King. It's painfully obvious that all the fanboys were completely blind when they saw this movie and must have shut their eyes while watching the painful 2 hour long ending, specifically the part where Frodo and the elves...er, hobbits (thanks, Ripper!) ... prance around in his bedroom. I feel confident that most critics are coming around to this realization (as I've heard talk as of late) and they would probably rate the film much lower now. Clearly anybody who gives ROTK an A+ has entered complete fanboy territory and is denying the existence of terrible flaws and dialogue ("I can't carry the ring, but I can carry you Frodo!!!!"). Clearly the movie is poo, but some continue to deny reality.

While that was fun, I'd like to enter back into reality for a moment. Clearly you liked ROTK, and while I didn't, I would not really question anybody's love for it. I may debate points I didn't like, but would not call them unjustified for liking the movie. Same goes for the Phantom Menace. While I didn't like the kid or Jar-Jar, I thought that the movie did have some decent moments (especially Darth Maul) and would hardly call it a complete turd. I think this is projected in most of the reviews, IMDB scores, etc... A 6-ish score seems about right to me.

I think it's pretty clear you bend to public perception WAY too easily, Snrub. You say you loved Phantom Menace until everyone started disliking it and jumped off the bandwagon and apparently hate it now with a passion. You say you liked Reloaded and jumped so far off the bandwagon when the backlash happened that you now rate the movie an F (in another thread). I would encourage you to stick to your guns better. Either that, or you are really bad at rating a movie when you first see it. I know what I like, and rarely give a flying fuck what others think. I have trouble believing that you fall for the hype so hard that it'll make you see a movie you'd give an F, and the hype alone makes you think it is ok. Don't mean to be rude, but you sound really wishy-washy on your opinions to have them shift that extremely and so frequently.

The Matrix Reloaded is clearly a film that people have wildly differing opinions on, same goes for Matrix Revolutions. I clearly won't be able to change your mind in your thought that I am "fooling myself" into liking the movie, and have no reasonable jusitication for liking it. Or, that it is a scientifically proven fact that it is complete poo. But, I assure you I'm really not that stupid to pretend I like something that I really don't. Life's too short to do that, and I'm getting too old to do things just to be like the cool kids (although I still pretend to like Devo just to fit in). I also didn't spend $100 on the Ultimate DVD edition and watch the movies on repeat viewing or take the time to listen to the philosopher's commentary just to pretend to like the film. I genuinely love the story, characters, cinematography, action, and trying to dissect the plot and find it's roots in philosophy and mythology. I completely understand it's not for everyone, but that hardly makes it poo.

On another note, you still haven't answered me on whether "Quit (Playing) Games With My Heart" could be our special song. Or, have you suddenly stopped liking it because public perception points to it as being crappy? [-X

One thing I truly hate is the handful of fans of the Matrix movies that try to say that if you hated the movies you are just stupid or didn't understand them or must be confused. Clearly that is untrue as a lot of very intelligent people fall on both sides of this argument.



Yes, I saw and loved most of the Animatrix. There were a couple of the shorts that didn't really connect with me, but overall it was very good and enjoyable to watch. I actually did not endure Dreamcatcher to see the short. I instead made the mistake of buying the Dreamcatcher DVD and wasting about 2 1/2 hours of my life watching it sans the Osiris clip. Dreamcatcher pissed me off because it started out halfway good, but then just took a wrong turn about halfway through and by the end had completely derailed.

And is there really any such thing as crappy porn?!?



I misunderstood. I thought when you said that Reloaded seemed like half a movie to you, I assumed you were upset by the ending. I do agree with you, and liked the ending as is.



Nope. Never read the LOTR books. I never got into the hobbit thing as a kid. I never played Dungeons and Dragons and generally hate RPG games. I don't identify with anything in that universe which would probably explain my boredom during the 10 hours I watched those movies. But, I really do see why some people like the movies, and while I joke about it, I don't think less of anyone that loves them.



That may have been too dark of an ending for Reloaded. Plus, it's pretty clear that Neo and Trinity are linked together from the start and are dependent upon each other until the end of their journey. While I liked Revolutions, one of my biggest beefs with it was that Neo and Trinity disappear for a substantial chunk of the movie. I actually would have liked to see more of them.



I agree with you. I doubt it would change the reviews much, but at least you'd give time for a breather and allow the hype machine to work back up at a reasonable pace. It would have certainly helped box office wise, IMO. But, probably would have been generally received the same in the court of public opinion.



If you get a chance to listen to the new commentaries...do it. The philosophers make some very interesting observations that I had never noticed before.

I also took the time to listen to the critics commentary as the Wachowski's hired 3 critics that hated the sequels to do a commentary. The critics actually make some valid points, I thought. But, generally they couldn't agree with what they liked and didn't like. For example, they seemed very split on the car chase in Reloaded. They can't agree with whether it was the greatest chase scene ever filmed or too long and boring. That's whats amazing to me about these films - how 3 intelligent people can see the same film and come away with wildly different opinions, just as all of us here have opinions on it that are all over the map. I can't recall a movie that sparked such a range of opinions.

As for the secondary characters introduced I liked a lot of them, especially the Merovingian, Persephone, the twins, Bane, and the trainmen. I thought they were used appropriately and enjoyed each one when they were on screen. On the flipside, I'd agree that there were a few that were useless and that I didn't like. For example, I did NOT like "the kid".



Yes. Likely, the first Matrix will always be looked upon by the mass public as the best and the one that captures most of the nostalgia.

But, I still think there is a large difference between the BTTF trilogy and the Matrix trilogy. I find the BTTF sequels to be more "throw-away" or "skin deep" type movies. You won't see College classes or Philosophy professors dissecting them.

To me, the Matrix sequels are deeper. You can find College classes that study the films, there are long essays devoted to them. I see them as being much deeper than the BTTF films. That's why I think that the Matrix sequels have the outside chance to evolve over time and gain public perception, while the perception of the BTTF sequels will likely remain static.



While I like effects and don't mind the use of CGI, overuse of CGI can definitely ruin an experience. For example, the final fight in Van Helsing between dracula and VH was completely 100% CGI which takes viewers out of the action and makes them feel detatched.

MRel and Rev wove both live action and CGI in and out and never soley used CGI as VH did for a complete fight from front to end. Most was a blend of the two. There were a few quick CGI shots that were so good that I really had no idea. For example the "super punch" to Smith in MRev was 100% CGI from Neo's fist, to the rain, to Agent's Smiths face. There are a couple moments during the Burly Brawl that are obviously CGI, but when they weave in and out quickly I never became detached as I did with VH. Plus, to me, that was such a cool fight scene that I didn't mind the few split second moments that looked CGI-ish.



Agreed. It truly is getting hard to find anything that is genuinely original and groundbreaking. Pretty much everything has been done before. Which is why I think you'll start to see more combining of ideas, particularly the infusion or adopting of various cultural aspects (such as westernized kung-fu).



I could bitch for days about LOTR. Have I mentioned lately that I hate those movies?



Ok...let's set a day aside and watch the Matrix trilogy, Star Wars trilogy, Harry Potter trilogy, and we can throw in LOTR and Godfather to boot. Then we can really determine which is better!

I never asserted that most critics would reverse course now and agree with me. My comparison was intended to be purely theoretical (which may not have come across very well...). A theory on why the public perception of the film and Revolutions now is in such stark contrast to the glowing reviews it received on release. I'm not saying those that still like it are "fooling themselves", just that a lot of people at the time might have been letting their love for the previous film in the franchise taint their initial opinions, as I have done in the past with other films. I'd say if you still like the film today, you're pretty much an outright fan - and for you, the movie is not utter crap.

I can’t be arsed trolling through all of the Rotten Tomatoes reviews trying to find someone contradicting themselves (there are an annoying number of dead links and mysteriously disappearing reviewers). But here are two reviewers I’ve found whose opinions seem to shift over the course of 6 months.

RELOADED: "When the film ends with a "To Be Continued," the hooks are in for The Matrix Revolutions on November 5th. Maybe I've been programmed to say it, but I am so there."
-- Peter Travers, ROLLING STONE
REVOLUTIONS: "You don't have to be an Oracle to know Revolutions will make a pile, as did the bloated Reloaded, the first sequel, released in May."
-- Peter Travers, ROLLING STONE

RELOADED: Fortunately, we won't have to wait four years before the action resumes. Consider that -- and "Reloaded' -- a gift from the Wachowskis.
-- Glenn Whipp, LOS ANGELES DAILY NEWS
REVOLUTIONS: "While Reloaded and Revolutions might be technically proficient, they are largely devoid of the kind of wonder and storytelling that hooked us the first time."
-- Glenn Whipp, LOS ANGELES DAILY NEWS

Huh??! Huh??! See?!?!

**grasps at straws**



Let me just say that while I loved ROTK, I too thought the dancing around on the bed scene bordered on farcical. But I hate you nonetheless!!

... I love you.



Hey, hey, hey! I never said that I liked The Matrix Reloaded when I first saw it. I always thought it was rubbish damn it! Even before I saw it! And my opinion on The Phantom Menace didn't sway after public perception turned out to be crap, it swayed on it's own accord. My point was that a beloved franchise can colour your initial feelings on new franchise entries. I can remember being disappointed with The Phantom Menace when it was first released, but just the excitement of seeing a new Star Wars film that it took a few viewings for it to settle in just how disappointed I was. Of course my opinions on films shift, sometimes more abruptly than others (I went from hating American Psycho to loving it in just two viewings). Hell, in time I might even change my mind on Reloaded. *titter*



I understand it takes different strokes to rule the world, Tony. And just to clarify, when I say that I think The Matrix Reloaded is poo I don't mean to say that the film actually is poo. Just that I think it is. It's clear that you love the films and I don't mean to say that your opinion isn't valid, that you’re “fooling yourself” or that it will change. The fact that you still watch it and defend it is testament to how much you clearly love the film.

I should also take this opportunity to clarify that that whole paragraph where I said “But still today some die-hard fans/fan cling to the dream, fooling themselves/himself that the prequels/sequels are worthy of the Star Wars/Matrix name and spewing vitriol and useless "facts" at anyone who claims otherwise.” I was half joking…



Wait, wait, wait… the public perception points to it as what??!! Why wasn’t I told!!

precisely, I jsut get frustrated discussiing movies online. I go to RT everyday and post and yet I rarely discuss a movie because some many of hte arugemtsn are childish...its sort of funny in an ironic sad way that you cannot discuss miovies intelligent at a site devoted to movies.



The one were the girl does the trianing, I believ ona horse and usign aspear, were she has to kill teh guys she cares for while jacked i..I didn;t care for. The runner one was nice becasue it showed how a perosn coudl reazlie The Matrix was fake sjust be doign every day things...his trianing led him to question his surroundings..subtle and brillant. Final Flight was awesome, the first one they releases online had the reat scene witht he men attakcing the women, and then you see she is a robot, but befor ethen I as a owmen was thinking how horrid, etc...it did a very good job of showing an interesting back story. In many ways I cared more about that then what happened in the sequels.



Just a god awful film, and the actors that got for this...Morgan Freeman who picks your scripts these days, and the facial hair *shudder*




As much as I like porn, yes there is, maybe the lack of dick amkes it easier for me to be picky about this :wink:



It definitly felt like half a movie, but when I saw the end I was like, damn, that ending jsut knocked my socks off..and I was lukewarm on what came before.

We all knew going in this was being split into to films and their would be a cliffhanger enging, I neve understood the people who were upset about the Reloaded ending. It is one of the better cliffhangers in film.

I willa dmit I was not entirely happy with the Neo stopping the sentinals thing, but the genius of having Neo next to Agent Smith jsut erode my reservations. I was sitting like, etf just happened. It left alot of unanswered questions, which a good ending should.



I understand that, I am not a big fan of anime, and hwile I get that people love anime I rarely like anime. Yet if I say that, i am like evil or something. I sure you get crap for your dsilike of LOTR. I spend a long time arguing about ROTK sucking when it was out, because lord di the end of hte film suck major ass. i thought it was over, but it kept going and going like the energizer bunny...



One of my major gripes with teh sequesl is that we do not see enough of the major characters from the first film. They are why we are here and they ought to be front and center. I think there were way to many side cheracters introduced, and that meant alot less screen time for the orginal chracters.



We are totally of like mind here. Nonetheless the movies made a fuck load of money.



I plan to rent it though I doubt I will have time before this summer.



I liked that htey did that, and that to me says alot abotu them and their willingness to accept that soem people think their movie is shit. I gaineed alot of respect for them. I generally do nto listen to commentatires, but these are obvisouly well thought out ones, and so I wills eek them out.

Every crap film gets a commentary now, like i need to here hte direcor go, my film is awesome, yeah great.

I was not planning on watching the films on DVD, but when I heard about the commentaries I decided i would listen to all of it. Hopefully this encourages more thoughtprovoking and interesting commentaries in the future.



The Kid was irritating, while I love Persophone's breasts her scene in the bathroom with Neo and whole werewolves/ghost thing was very meh. I also thought the Chateau fight scene dragged on for way to long...we already know Neo kicks ass. The car chase scene was better, but it jsut had some oddities..the firs film establishes that no one can beat an Agent but Neo...yet Morpheus fights an agent for along time. And the Agents crushing some cars and nto others..I know I ma being picky, but the scene was very long. So while parts of it were cool, i sort of felt like it ocudl be edited. itgoes back to my feelign like I did not get enough time with major characters like Morpheus. I could have done with a shorter action scenes.




I see your point, BTTF is jsut the only trilogy I could think in my initial post witht hat as an exmaple were the first is loved and the other two have lukewaarm reception. Let's be honest the second BTTF is crap, and I am not terribly fond ot he third, but the first is just awesome. So that idea of people really loveing the first and having a much lesser connection to the last two is what I am getting at.

I also think over time you might see lesscollege classes built around The matrix, adn more use of it in a preexistign class as an example..theree are college classes on Harry Potter...some of that is the hype machine.



Ugh, that van helsign battle was the definition of ninteresting, then again VH took Dracula and interesting character and made him dull and lifeless..that takes some major levels of suck.



My problem is I can pick up were the CGI is, the worst exmaple of thsi is the Neo vs 100+ Agent Smith. It is painfuly obviosu when the CGI kicks in, and in the end I wonder if it was really worth it. Since you can tellt he wow factor is allt he less. Where the scene you refer to is much better at intergrating the CGI and so my distaste for the effects int hat case is much less.

My thought proces when the effects are that obvious (and I honestly could spot them from the first ime I saw the film, this may be becasue I ahve studeid comptuer graphics, so my eye is likely pickier then most) is that they lose a bit of their purpose to the movie. Great action is wonderful, but if it looks fake then it loses my interest.

I felt the Neo vs 100 Agent SMith battle was overly long, and so I would have cut out some of the less realistic looking CGI.

I think deep down my problem with the films is I feel alot of things could be edited out and not change the content much. All to often when I see movies now I sort of feel like directors throw things just because its cool, and its not really furthering the story. While that is great sometimes. if you do it to much your movie becomes over long.

For example,. while the FOTR EE has some great scenes, every scene that was cut to make the theatrical editions houdl have been cut, the shorter version is better. We do not need a 5 hour movie. I've only seen one 5 hour movie that I thought did not need to be cut (Pride and Prejudice). I would aruge that many filsm made recently could stand to go back to the editing room. Taking alot of film classes helped shape my opinion on this.



I like this combination of ideas, I just wish when the younger genration liked it, they would seek out the roots of it and realize that it came from somewhere.

The next 15 year odl who tells me the Wachowski invented the idea of The Matrix is getting bitch slapped.




today, no :wink:

We seriosuly need a LOTR bitch fest. I want to hear your compliants, you can hear my complaints and what i like about them.



Maybe even BTTF, and we have to do the SW prequels if we do the OT.

You make a good point. There are indeed a very few number of idiotic critics out there that will not judge a movie on it's own merits and instead blindly rate it based on another movie within that series. I don't understand this notion, and think those that do this should not be movie critics.

Where I'd disagree with you is what influenced their review of Matrix Reloaded. You feel that most inflated the score based on the first movie. I, however, think the critics that reversed course (as the ones you cited) changed their opinion based soley on their disappointment on Revolutions.

Reloaded and Revolutions were dependent on each other, and were arguably one movie. A lot of critics felt there was some promise for Revolutions, but when it didn't deliver the payoff they wanted, it reflected poorly on Reloaded to them and thus their opinion shifted.



You confused me with your fancy writings when you said that, "At the time, a great deal of people were unwilling to admit to themselves that The Phantom Menace was poo (myself included... I went to see it three times at the cinema before I finally gave up pretending to love it)", and then later said to change "Phantom Menace" to "Matrix Reloaded" in that paragraph - which I did, and then skipped over your next paragraph not realizing you made other little changes. Hell, frankly, I'm confused as I type this. You're really going to have to quit using your fancy British writings and phrasings and talk down to my level!

Not to sound too snobbish, but I've never had the problems you've discussed such as your reluctance to admit Planet of the Apes was bad or that Phantom Menace sucked donkey balls. I've never subscribed to one director or series so much as to blindly follow them. Every actor and director makes a turd here and there. I loved the Wachowski's Bound and the Matrix Trilogy, but they are also responsible for inflicting us with the Sylvester Stallone/Antonio Banderas turd Assasins (they wrote it), and for that I'll never forgive them.

Wait...did I say I didn't want to sound too snobbish?!? Screw that! I'm clearly better than you and I'd like that noted somewhere....

But, I take back the wishy washy thing. I only wanted to put you on the defensive for a bit so you'd quit thinking of bizarre made up points that I'd have to refute. Unfortunately, it only partially worked.

Stupid debate class taught me wrong!



Nice attempt to weasel out of that one!

Really though, I'm only half joking.



I know how you feel. Supposedly, word on the street is that the Backstreet Boys are not cool anymore.

I hear the New Kids on the Block are still hip. Oh how I miss Danny, Donny, Joe, John, and Jordon!

I think the Animatrix short your referring to was called "Program", and that was also one I didn't like. I really liked the one you mentioned with the runner, "World Record", "Detective Story" (the one with the detective and Trinity - I liked the style a lot), "Final Flight of the Osiris", "Beyond" (with the girl and cat with glitches in the Matrix), and the 1st and 2nd Renaissance. I was very indifferent on the "Kids Story", especially considering that one resulted in the kid being in the sequels.



I love the Energizer Bunny comment!!!

And, I'm not a big fan of Anime either. I did like most of the Animatrix, and I do like Cowboy Bebop, which is more of a westernized type Anime. Oh, and I very much liked Spirited Away. But, other than that there's not much I like in the Anime genre.



This reminds me of a point you made earlier I forgot to comment on about Morpheus.

I thought it was an interesting when everything Morpheus believed started to fall apart, until his entire dogma was destroyed. They did show him struggling with that a bit, but I agree that I would like to have even seen a little more of this.

It's funny though, as most people seem to hate the transformation that Morpheus took from the first to the last movie, but I found it an interesting side story of a man who completely lost his faith only to have it restored in the end.



Amen to that! I am sick of the boring director commentaries that just lavish praise on the film no matter how bad it is. Or, the actor commentaries that talk about benign crap like what the catered food was like or how cold it was outside. Like you said, hopefully this will spur more creative commentaries.



Morpheus fights that Agent after his dogma has been shaken up a lot. I think even he is starting to doubt things he said before, and is willing to play outside the rules. Plus - with Neo's help - he survived the confrontation with Agent Smith and being captured in the first movie. By the time he fights him on top of the truck, I think he has a whole different belief system. I don't know if he belives he can win, but perhaps he is thinking if he can hold him off long enough until Neo can help out. Anyhow, that's how I see it, which is almost word for word what the Philosophers say during that part. So, I may have stolen that from them!



See, I thought the 2nd BTTF was better than the 3rd. I really thought the 3rd was mostly boring. Not that the 2nd was a materpiece.



Well, I definitely can't argue with your opinion. Personally, I liked the 100 Agent Smith vs Neo fight, and would have liked it to be longer.

For me, if I was going to try really hard to criticize the fight scenes in Reloaded, I would say the only thing wrong with them is that there is no real tension or worry that the lead characters are in real danger. The critics make this point in the commentary, and I thought it was a valid one. Same goes for the Chateau fight in which Neo fights a bunch of low-life lackeys that you know will never beat Neo. While I thought the fight scenes were very cool and well done and could look past that, I could see how others may feel detached during those scenes due to the lack of real danger.




I fear we're always going to be stuck with idiotic 15 year olds that'll think Agent Cody Banks Part 6 is the most original movie to ever hit the face of the Earth. But, I'll definitely help you bitch slap them around. I also have plenty of mace, clubs, and tasers to help out.



It's a deal. Once I'm done bitch slapping Snrub around here I'll expound on why I hated LOTR series so much.



Oh, and the Indiana Jones Trilogy too. I think I can go 5 days without sleep...

We are completely of liek mids on the shorts. The "Program" I disliked, I was indifferent to Kids Story, and I loved the rest.




It is so true, I mean I thought the movie was over, and I waslike great. And it kept going, and then i thoguht it was over, and it kept going, and then I thgouth it was over..mind you I read the book and knew there was more, but it was filemd in such a way that it appeared to have 7 endings. As my boyfriend's little brother said in regards to ROTK, "They needed to day down the ending alot."

In the book the dnign includes the controversial "Scouring of the Shire," in which the Shire is burned and the Hobbits return to find that all the evil is nto gone from the World. it compeltes Tolkien's methaphor on war..even when you "win" there is still fighting and the enemy still exists. I liked that it showed that destroyign the ring got rid of Sauron, but it didn;t kill all the orcs, etc. Many people do not like the Scouring of eh Shire and Peter Jackson did not film it, I think it adds balance to an otherwise overly happy ending.



I loved Sprited Away, we just keep agreeinghere. I never saw Cowboy Bebop, but given that we both don;t like anime and liked Spirited Away, a recommendation from you means alot more then a recommendation from my anime obsessed friends.




I thought it was a great transfromation as well, I just wanted to see more of it.



Exactly, I read a great reivew wher ethey talked abotu how boring the commentary was on The Stepford Wives, just Frank Oz going isn't the move great...no it wasn't, that is why nobody saw it or liked it all that much.





I can see him tryign to fight them off, I jsut think the fight went on for so long...that it felt like it violated the rueslof the first film abit, but i am willign to accept this is in part due to Morpheus seeing everything he believes crumbling.



I honestly do not like either of them. I only bought the box set so I could get the first film. I got it used for like $15.




Exactly, since the characters are not in any real danger, the fights are boring, and when I am bored I nitpick at technical stuff like CGI effects, camerawork.

The Chateaut fight is by far the mostly poitnless one ever, there is no way Neo would lose. If Neo had fought the Merovigian, that would have been different.

In the first film they establish Neo as the shit, and so unless he is fighting Smith, his fights seem there jsut to say, "look athte cool effects we paid for." Liek hsi fight with Seraph, it was just like,look we both worked our asses off doing prep work for months, we can not fight and kick ass.

In the first film teh action served the story, in the latter two films the action felt like it went one for to long and often did nothign to further the plot.



Sweet, and hopefully you can put a good word for me with the judge :wink:



I look forward to it.



Sleep is overrated. :wink:

The ending in the book does indeed sound a lot better. As it was ROTK was, as you say, wayyyyy too long and wayyyyy too touchy-feely happy. The real ending probably wouldn't have changed my mind on the entire series, but it would have been a start.

BTW, didn't Frodo die in the books? It seems like I heard that somewhere, but I could be wrong. If so, I would have loved that ending.



I loved the 26 episode Cowboy Bebop DVDs. By far my favorite Anime. Great American voice acting, none of the typical big eye young looking characters to be found. It's more modern Matrix type style intertwined with plenty of humor. It's done by Shinichiro Watanabe who did the "Detective Story" on the Animatrix DVD. If you have time to just watch one 25 minute episode then catch "Mushroom Samba" (Disc 4, episode 17). That's one of my favorites. There was also a Cowboy Bebop movie which was decent, but I didn't think it was as good as the episodes. CB works great as a 25 minute show, but is a tad too stretched out in a 1 1/2 hour story, but again that would give you a rough idea of what it's like and it is definitely watchable, if you're so inclined to try it out.

And, back to the Matrix discussion... I don't want to brag, but I think our debate should be the model that all internet debates follow. This should go in some sort of "hall of fame" of message board arguments as the blueprint as to how to have a discussion. We both expressed our opinions rationally, listened to one another, and I think came away with a clear understanding of each others points. There was no name calling or childish bickering (this may be the only time I ever refrained from that type of behavior!). This is without a doubt the best discussion/debate I've ever had with any one on a message board. =D>

Frodo does go off with the Elves at the end (as you see in the movie), he really is incapabale fo returning to his former life. He takes Arwen's place.




Thanks, that helps alot, my friends have the shows on DVD, so I borrow those and try it out. I have Inu Yasha, and while I don;t love it, its anime that I can at least watch.



Seriously we rock, I for only the second time (did have one intelligent discussion about The matrix trilogy on RT, out of about 100 attempts), talked to someone who lvoed the filsm and gained a better udnerstanding of why and a new perspective with which to watch the sequels.

This to is the best discussion I ahve had with soemone on amessage boared abotu a movie, and that is an even greated accomplishment since we both sit on opposite sises of the fence about the films.

I say, let's brag :wink:

Flame wars can be fun, but it nice to see and read a nice intelligent debate with opinions expressed. A good forum should have both.

Now we shall bring some intelligence discussion to LOTR, and then we can move on to a new trilogy.

I'm glad I finally got to have an extended conversation with you, since I tend to not know alot of the members that came after me at BOM all that well.

that pretty much sums up what a myth is.

i'm a not a huge fan of the matrix films, but i think the most authentic thing about them was the way they synthesised modern concerns/ philosophies with some of the oldest stories we have. the way they bundled things together didn't bother me; mythmakers have done it since the dawn of time. in film terms, i found it very interesting and very fresh. the problem for me was that they didn't do it very well.

at the end of the day, there is only a fine line between saying something profound and meaningful, which (to a stupid person) might sound pointless and baffling, and saying something pointless and baffling, which (to a stupid person) might sound profound and meaningful. i'm sorry to say that the matrix films erred on the side of the latter.

Front of House

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Today's bodybuilding tip. You can improvise a cheap isotonic drink by adding a pinch of salt and a tablespoon of sugar to filtered tapwater. The salt will replace vital electrolytes, and the sugar will give you energy. Also, when training in hot weather, keep a tub of gentleman's grooming wax close by. That way, you can ensure that your moustache is stiff and shiny until you hit the showers.

i seemed to have joined this a bit late.

I would have given a very high ranking to this trilogy if it wasn't for the fact that revolutions was just ... well ... blah.

While i always considered Matrix a good but overrated movie, i loved reloaded. I loved it for how it took everything from the original movie and ripped it to shreds. I loved everything about it cept for a few unneccessary scenes and terrible acting.

greatest? nah
excellent? nah
disappointing? yeh ...good but could have been better.

Interest in bodybuilding, well written response, lives in the UK...

Welcome "Front of House"... welcome... indeed...

no, he doesn't die i think the scouring of the shire *would've* taken some of the sugar out of the ending... but to be honest, i think the film would've done fine without it, if it weren't for how *cheesy* those closing scenes were. i mean the acting, the slow motion, and the fuzzy soft focus when sam and frodo finally kiss...

don't get me wrong, i LOVED the whole trilogy. the fact that i could stomach the ending is a tribute to how emotionally invested i was in the film. to be honest, they could have ended it with a puppet show and a picnic, and i would've lapped it up. but the last few scenes really did lack the grandeur of the books. i mean, the grey havens looked like the start of a log flume ride!

i guess that's when you know you love a film: when you can't help enjoying the bad bits

Front of House
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Today's Bodybuilding Tip: If you struggle to build up your arms, then try this: immediately after finishing the last rep of the last set, halve the weight and squeeze out another twelve reps. By going the extra half-mile, you'll really blast those biceps. Equally, if you struggle to grow a decent moustache, make do in the short term with a plastic novelty one. These already look stiff and shiny, so keep a tub of gentleman's grooming wax nearby to complete the illusion.