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 "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion 
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Mau wrote:
Ok this needs to stop. 49% on Rotten Tomatoes? For "The Bells*?!? What the fuck?


This is so absurd lol.

If nothing else, cinematically this episode was amazing.


Tue May 14, 2019 9:42 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
stuffp wrote:
Shack's main site article is pretty good, it voices an understanding for Dany that was just not depicted in the show.

Shack wrote:
"Tyrion and Varys were two of her most trusted confidants and both betrayed her"


Tyrion has done, or at least thought up, so much stupid shit that cost Dany, it's a surprise, especially in hindsight that she didn't "Dracarys"ed him before anyone else.

But still, what I didn't really get was, with the bells being rung and she's on Drogon on the city walls...why didn't she just gear all that anger to the Red Keep and burn the whole castle and Cersei and everyone in it down...why go through the whole city first, giving Cersei as much of a chance to escape. It's just not really making much sense.
Her motivation to kill women and children, it came from somewhere, that "experienced personal heartbreak after heartbreak and wanting to lead from fear" are a way to explain it, but the very moment to to start burning those civilians appeared so suddenly out of nowhere, it remains to feel too un-instigated for me to make sense of it. And that's just on the writers.


Plot device to show Danyt is a monster and the "Big Bad" for the finale. Also allows Cersei and Jaime to die together, Cleganebowl to happen etc.

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Tue May 14, 2019 10:17 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
stuffp wrote:
Shack's main site article is pretty good, it voices an understanding for Dany that was just not depicted in the show.

Shack wrote:
"Tyrion and Varys were two of her most trusted confidants and both betrayed her"


Tyrion has done, or at least thought up, so much stupid shit that cost Dany, it's a surprise, especially in hindsight that she didn't "Dracarys"ed him before anyone else.

But still, what I didn't really get was, with the bells being rung and she's on Drogon on the city walls...why didn't she just gear all that anger to the Red Keep and burn the whole castle and Cersei and everyone in it down...why go through the whole city first, giving Cersei as much of a chance to escape. It's just not really making much sense.
Her motivation to kill women and children, it came from somewhere, that "experienced personal heartbreak after heartbreak and wanting to lead from fear" are a way to explain it, but the very moment to to start burning those civilians appeared so suddenly out of nowhere, it remains to feel too un-instigated for me to make sense of it. And that's just on the writers.


She did it for fun. She's always enjoyed burning people alive, since Season 1.

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Tue May 14, 2019 11:23 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
How would the sacking of King’s Landing play in the books?


Jon - the two armies at the gates, worries about Dany losing control
Euron - Drogon destroys ships
Dany - Tearing shit up, feeling a little too good about the burning, hears the bells
Tyrion - Hears the bells, hopes she stops but she does not
Arya - Someone has to watch Cleganebowl and then she chooses her life over revenge
Cersei - Tries to escape while reflecting, finds Jaime
Jaime - fights Euron, finds Cersei, death scene
Jon - Calls for the retreat
Arya - adds Dany to her list
Dany - justifies it to herself

Just laying it out like that makes it easier to stomach. If people knew it was coming the reaction wouldn’t be nearly as harsh.

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Wed May 15, 2019 5:09 am
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Flava'd vs The World wrote:
If people knew it was coming


I think the strength of GOT has been how it surprises with shocking turn of events, mostly at the end of a season starting with Ned's beheading, then the Red Wedding and beyond.

But the writing onto how those events came to take place has been pretty top notch, the Stark deaths were no less liked than the burning King's Landing, but they just came upon due to cause.

And in the most recent episodes these surprising turns just didn't come upon this way anymore, and instead happened just as a means to explain a conclusion. It's the lazy writing that makes the criticism deserved.


Wed May 15, 2019 7:09 am
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
stuffp wrote:
Flava'd vs The World wrote:
If people knew it was coming


I think the strength of GOT has been how it surprises with shocking turn of events, mostly at the end of a season starting with Ned's beheading, then the Red Wedding and beyond.

But the writing onto how those events came to take place has been pretty top notch, the Stark deaths were no less liked than the burning King's Landing, but they just came upon due to cause.

And in the most recent episodes these surprising turns just didn't come upon this way anymore, and instead happened just as a means to explain a conclusion. It's the lazy writing that makes the criticism deserved.
Oh what I meant was that if this scene had already been written and digested by book readers. There’d be less outrage and more of the funny reaction videos we got from the red wedding.

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Wed May 15, 2019 12:13 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Magnus hits the nail in the head.

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Wed May 15, 2019 12:42 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
New theory I see - Bran is behind it all. He warged into Drogon and made him destroy the city to make Dany look bad and destroy the alliance of ice and fire. Now Bran will take his place as the new Night King.

Honestly makes more sense than what happened on Sunday.

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Thu May 16, 2019 1:24 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
1. I thought he cannot pop into dragons.
2. Missandei's last word Dracarys. Makes Perfect Sense
3. Dany telling Jon "fear then"

The videos that have recapped all the times she's threatened fire and brimstone make it all make sense. The stuff that doesn't make sense is Arya not getting turned to dust while being on the same street as the woman & daughter and this Jon Snow love when he's been the worst leader / decision maker evah.

** I was watching a after show reaction vid and one of the comments suggested that the show ends with Bran popping out of a vision and none of all this stuff happened up to a point. Oohh, that'd be so evil.

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Thu May 16, 2019 2:23 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
I've seen the script.

Ned wakes up in King's Landing and realises it was all a dream. Instead of going down to review the genealogy book as planned - he couldn't care less who Robert's children are and closes the case and goes back to sleep.

The End.

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Thu May 16, 2019 11:03 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
What if Bran just wakes up after falling out the window?

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Fri May 17, 2019 11:45 am
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
zwackerm wrote:
What if Bran just wakes up after falling out the window?


If it were all a vision of a possible future then the backlash would be inmense, the biggest in tv history, bigger than The sopranos backlash.


Fri May 17, 2019 12:20 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
St. Elsewhere, Dallas (Season 9), Roseanne

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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Magnus wrote:
MAGNUS RANT:


Dany going Mad Queen is the RIGHT end destination for her character...in the books. The TV show however failed to earn that turn even though I knew it was going to happen and in fact have been telling my friends for years that Dany is not going to be a "good" person. Foreshadowing isn't by itself strong character development.

Moreso, the bigger issue isn't just the turn but the extreme extent of it. People are underplaying the fact that what Dany does is LITERALLY THE MOST EVIL ACT IN THE HISTORY OF THE SHOW! Even her father trying to burn the entire city down would have been less evil (as he was doing it in an effort to kill his enemies and also believed that he would survive the fire). Even Aegon's conquest never had an act like this. It is an extreme decision to make even for a psychotic Targaryan. There were much better ways to have her turn/go bad/go mad and not have her commit the worst atrocity in the series.

You don't get to just have your major character do such an act without earning it and they did not earn it. Anakins turn in ROTS is more earned than Danys in GoT and that's saying A LOT. Thus, it is unequivocally HORRIBLE writing. Anyone saying otherwise to me fails at basic storytelling criticism.

Now, the shows popularity and relevance happen because the shows first four seasons were among the best written episodes of TV ever. So when the final stretch of the show basically loses the core quality of what made the show relevant, critics have every justification to shit on it. If the show was just about visuals and production, no one would be attached to these characters and stories as they are and it would have never been THIS big of a show.

Undoubtedly, the production and visuals are amazing and unlike anything we've seen on TV. But if a piece of content completely loses its core quality, the secondary elements are far less meaningful and impactful. Battle scenes like Blackwater and The Watchers of the Wall aren't as well produced as the battles of this season but the writing around those battles enhance them. For example, the death of Yrgitte is a better executed death scene than any of the death scenes from this season.

Now, what I will say is that the main cause of all these problems isn't just this season but season 7, which I still contend is the worst season of GoT and completely ruined the show for me. I hope that those who praised that season will go back and understand why it was so flawed. The reasons that these issues exist in S8 is because the show failed to set things up properly in S7. If there was better development of the story and characters in S7, a lot of these S8 issues would be minimized or non-existent.

Finally, I will say this: the majority of fantasy franchises have weaker endings than their beginnings. ROTK (the book) isn't as good as FOTR or TT, The Wheel of Time didn't quite finish in the best of ways, Harry Potter last book is kinda whack, etc. So one thing I will admit is that it is actually normal for a story of this type to not feel as good as what it was before. But none of those other examples had such a significant flaw that this show has done with Danys turn. I do think if GRRM ever gets to finishing the books, he will lay out the turn much better (to MadGez's point, it is probably a big reason why its taken him forever because he knows what the end destination is but is struggling how to get there and maintain quality and integrity of his story). But the show dropped the ball.


I couldn't agree more. I have no objection with the turn and it will most likely happen in the book. Its the way that they have built up with the heel turn where you just go from 0 degrees to 500 degrees in one turn with no increments in between except for the case of Tarleys being burnt. My other issues is that the actions of some of the characters contradicted with the book because they felt they want to save money on the CGI(Jon would not just have given his wolf away like that) or because they want to appease the redit crown(Jaime sleeping with Brienne when in the books it mentions how much he was replused by Briennes look). Too many times have the characters instantly teleport from one place to another between season 7 and 8.

Its such a shame because season 1 to 4 were A+ in my opinion despite some changes on season 4. Season 5 took a big step down but still enjoyable and season 6 was slightly between. Season 7 and 8 dragged the grading down to Lost and Walking Dead levels. It reminds me that Season 1 of GOT aired the same time as Starz Camelot show.That latter show had a budget that rivals HBO and actually has good production. However Camelot was a show so bad and cliched that it was a lesson for writers to avoid when making medieval fantasy shows. GOT S7 and 8 has literally became that

This is what happens when Dumb and Dumber have too much creative control and develop an ego trip in doing so changes from GRRM book in season 5. They also got lazy because HBO wanted 13 episodes per season for S7 and 8 but they insist on 6 because they wanted to get the show over with


Fri May 17, 2019 1:28 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
I think GOT writers were always better at dialog than everything else. That was ok when they could stick to GRRM story and characters though.

This twitter thread is good



Sat May 18, 2019 1:09 am
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Watched the first 5 episodes over the past few days and sorta agree with Mister Ecks, feels a bit like I've been watching a different show to whatever the critical backlash is directed at.

Nothing here is unexpected given the way season 7 was made: the couple of years off just enabled greater technical accomplishment; the scripts of each final season were no doubt written together, and the previous season's plotting - and soap opera style of unimaginative melodrama - should've cushioned everyone's expectations more.

"It became less about the weight of the past and more about the spectacle of the present"

Or whatever that twitter writer guy Shack shared said - he's clutching at cleverness straws to gain more followers, I'd say. Of course the creators of a TV adaptation have a different creative method to the fucking author. Benioff may be an author himself, and they might've had enough exposure and expertise from Martin as co-executive to keep the series on par with the first six seasons, but there's clearly more to it than that; they plain and simply aren't as good at plot development as GRRM is, and the idea they've burnt-out is entirely presumptive, a call made when looking at the number of episodes rather than the overall runtime and the technical effort required to pull it all off.

The more reasonable assumption is, they simply got it wrong due to their comparative lack of talent. The TV guys either didn't respect their audience in the same way GRRM did or themselves have misjudged the driver of the show's popularity, which popularity has always been due not only to the anarchial no-hero realism of the real-world projected through a slow-burning climax in a fantasy realm, but mostly for the breathtakingly imaginative plotting and the high respect paid to its characters (which created way more unpredictability-fueled dramatic intrigue than we'd been accustomed to) naturally housed therein.

Benioff and DB, straightforwardly, are no-where near as creatively deep as that. Martin is a genius compared to these guys. They thought the show was about melodramatic last-word, ego-building sequences in season 7, and that all fans wanted from the finale was to have the long narrative foreplay go straight to the dramatic - but ultimately premature - ejaculative.

Season 8 is getting such shitty reviews, because it's not the same show; but neither was season 7, and the backlash is itself way too emotionally based to justify itself. Unto themselves, these episodes are fucking excellent - the fact they went for groundbreaking technicality and missed a creative mark they were never capable of meeting, shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Case and point: the criticism of 'The Longest Night' - that it was apparently too darkly lit and resolved the WW storyline way too rapidly. This sort of reaction to an episode that objectively raised the TV bar higher than its ever gone before, is nothing more than greediness. And anyone thinking the creators were over it, clearly didn't notice the runtime, clearly didn't notoce one of the greatest and most intense battle-to-resolutions ever put to film, if not the greatest - the end of the Avengers and Return of the King (sans Mount Doom) very much included.

At this point, who gives a shit whether Danearys' arc into madness was long enough to make sense. 'The Bells' is again a major, huge, balls-to-the-wall television masterpiece. No-one got lazy; less dramatically, good plot ideas can't be forced, and the writing part is never as difficult, as the execution.

I think that, if you want to keep with the foreplay, much better to accept the show for the best it could be, and to, you know, read the books - Martin will no doubt end things more to your satisfaction; and it was always his story, not HBO's. The show is still plenty likeable for an array of good reason: the episodes are fucking enormous, and, in the end, it'll probably finish well enough to justify the complaints everyone's bitching about.


Sat May 18, 2019 7:33 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Why does everyone defending the show go back to the same two points?

“From a technical perspective, it’s like no other TV show before!”
And
“Well writing a good end to a TV show is hard so let’s not be hard on them for trying and not meeting High expectations!

The story and characters are why the show is popular. Not the dragons or spectacle. And when your reach is further than your grasp narratively, that just means that you don’t treat ending a show like Game of Thrones lightly and you either work on it till it’s as good as can be or let HBO hire someone with talent to write it.

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Sat May 18, 2019 8:39 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Nah, just that that post didn't expand enough on the "episodes are excellent unto themselves" to make a different case. Meant the writing of The Longest Night, and especially the direction, are both top notch when expectations are removed. The two episodes prior are just build-up, as is the next to 'The Bells' - which isn't as good as ep 3 but it's still pretty fucking major.


Sat May 18, 2019 8:47 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Well, whether u like it or not, we are about to have the biggest finale of a tv show since.... Friends?

Love it or hate it, GOT has managed to grab the audience like no there show in decades. We should just witness history as no show will be able to pull what GoT did in a long time.

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Sun May 19, 2019 12:28 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion


Sun May 19, 2019 1:28 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
What a weird faggot of entitlement and audience-neediness this backlash has become. Blabbidy blah blah; if it were more developed than foreshadowed it would've been so obvious to people there'd have been an even bigger outcry than we're currently seeing. How is that not obvious to anyone?

The whole fucking point of the ending, from a commercial point of view, was the mystery; of course it couldn't be progressed through more obviously visible character development.

Nothing in the past couple of seasons, story-wise, has been perfect, D's arc being no exception. The issue would be significantly lessened, however, if the act were somehow made more evil-seeming in nature: which could have been done through more humanising of the city population prior - and that wouldn't have spoiled things anywhere near as much as the gradual introduction of Dany's turn would have.

The issue on-screen was, who really cares what she's doing, beyond the abstract understanding she's burning thousands of innocent people? The GoT audience has been taught to be emotionally invested in those that die, to care about their demise - and the people of King's Landing have always been somewhat conflated with the enemy (even if several other characters have been used as attempts to make up for that distance, through referring to them as potentially disloyal, and so on).

Was actually expecting the show to go all Boy in Striped Pajamas and to kill Arya (sp?) in the carnage, which would've made up for everything just mentioned by highlighting the gravity of D's vehemence without the city needing to matter. As it was, we needed to be taught to care more about the beauty and grandeur of the KL city, and to identify more with its people, for us to be invested in such a way the twist-approach justified the relatively sudden change of character.

If they'd managed to do that much, it'd have been as good a turn as any in the whole series, and completely fitting for the general anarchy of the show. But to say Dany needed to have her madness developed more carefully is stupid to what the outcome would've been. It's the intrigue that gives the show a direction for its anarchy-motor to travel in; stripping that away would have only caused even more entitled bitching about things being done too obviously.

To me it was perfectly OK as it was - even though I didn't care much about a dragon shooting fire-off in the distance, and even though no amount of women and children we don't know burning to death didn't add any drama (to this series, at least), the rest of the episode's magnitude kind of made up for it.


Sun May 19, 2019 7:06 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Mau wrote:
Well, whether u like it or not, we are about to have the biggest finale of a tv show since.... Friends?

Love it or hate it, GOT has managed to grab the audience like no there show in decades. We should just witness history as no show will be able to pull what GoT did in a long time.


True, but which TV show was the biggest audience and had the best final season/finale. Breaking Bad?


Sun May 19, 2019 9:03 pm
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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
The Walking Dead has had way bigger numbers for the majority of its run. Breaking Bad just scraped past 10 million in the finale premiere; and probably the episode a couple before it was better - at least everyone seemed to think so at the time.

I know that wasn't meant for me but this all has the brain ticking a fair bit. Has GoT ever been as good as BB? I think it's probably just more dramatic and binge-worthy - even at its best, it's still extremely character-ego-driven, whereas BB was straight-up masterly without any resortment to gratuity.

Game of Thrones is more...engrossing (there's the word), but given the past couple of seasons it'll be remembered mostly for things like the Red Wedding and Ramsey and Battle of the Bastards (which these last two seasons have allured to constantly, to make sure of it) and the Hodor twist; which regardless of what anyone says, could well have been an idea given by good old Groucho here (even if he himself reckons GRRM planned it all along).

I can see why people are getting upset about the general trajectory of the core drama, which was on a sustained upper until the end of season 6, and took a sudden descent through season 7. For a while there, the show just kept getting better and better, became more entertaining than practically every film epic thanks to the allowances of 10 episode seasons, and the sheer broadness of Martin's creative scope. I guess at a personal level I stopped caring about that which the show led me to feel expecting of, which went along with watching most stuff on a shitty burner phone these days. The change.org petition is nothing more than a laugh; whinging won't change anything, so better to focus on the better elements than set your ego up for a predictable disappointment, imo.

Even Breaking Bad's finale received some flack, because the final season already peaked when Hank died. I think it's mostly a case that audiences become way too greedy when they've been shown the high watermark, and the last impression doesn't reach it. There are TED talks on the psychology of that stuff, actually (Daniel Kahnemann's for example).


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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Backlash incoming...


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Post Re: "Game of Thrones" Season 8 Discussion
Yep.

I liked the finale. But the backlash is already at an all time high.

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