Again, you'll desperately try to discredit anybody that threatens your denial.

How many times do I have to say that the world isn't black and white. You have just labeled your thinking that way. Just because something doesn't bother me, doesn't mean that it's perfect. It doesn't mean that it couldn't have been better. Again, if it's not total praise, it's treated as if it's the total opposite of the spectrum.

I have no idea how the second point about the score is a contradiction, so please explain. I don't think you know how it is one either, but you're reaching to find answers, and the answers have been told to you. The theatrical was flawed. The execution wasn't great in enough places to be easily noticed. It was sloppy. The EE DVD fixes the sloppy parts that left something to be desired. It didn't perform miracles by making it a perfect movie, however.

Mavy, relax.

How is your score comment a contradiction? Because you led off by saying the many endings didn't bother you. Then you say because of the score, ending #25 of the many endings was shallow and confusing.

Maybe its more of a semantics issue.

Anway, I'm happy you liked the EE. There are worst ways to spend 4 hours (watching the Star Wars prequels come to mind).

The key word is "many" endings, not every aspect of the content in those endings. If you recall, the sheer number of endings was a sore spot for some people. I even expressed concern over it, but the number of endings wasn't an issue. That didn't mean I thought everything that happened in the last 20 minutes was perfection. The time for the endings and the number of different endings were not a problem that I had, just a few things that I felt could have been done better. It wasn't done horribly or anything.

I did enjoy the EE , and I was very relieved, because I didn't have 100% confidence. More like 95%, but there was a little doubt. The kind of doubt that is no different than I have about Fantastic 4 and EPIII being total enjoyable for me. It's quite normal to have a few doubts, but I thought I'd clear it up before you or anybody else thought I was speaking blasphemy about ROTK EE only, and not speaking about it in general terms.

I have it but haven't watched it yet. Could someone please tell me if the "cleansing of the Shire" is included?

No...they completely cut that out , as well as Tom Bombadil stuff too. I take it you are referring to the scouring of the shire chapter at the end of the book.

Yep, that's it. I haven't read the book in a few years. I was disappointed with Tom Bombadil, but it was understandable as film often requires the elimination of the characters based on the format not giving the audience enough time to digest the introduction of new people.
However, the "SCOURING" to me is a central part of the epilogue in that it shows the effect of the War on the Shire. It is important and should not have been left it out. Not only that, I think it would have played very well.

I enjoyed ROTK:EE but I still think that FOTR:EE is the best of all the movies. Plus, has anyone noticed the "I love you" that Frodo tells Sam when they last embrace during the Grey Havens. It's very muffled but it's there.

I bought the DVD set at 10:00 AM Tuesday morning and have watched a bit of the extras. All i can say is that i am floored. What a fantastic job they have done with the disques. I don't know if I will ever have timne to get through them all, but i am sure going to try. lol

BAUMER!

Lord of the Rings' Gollum Gets Health Check

Thu Dec 16, 2004 07:11 PM ET
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm ... ID=7119119

LONDON (Reuters) - Gollum, the creepy character in "Lord of the Rings" with the dual personality and eerie voice, suffered from a schizoid personality disorder, according to a group of medical students.
Thirty students at University College London were asked to explain the odd behavior the character displayed in the films based on the J.R.R. Tolkien trilogy.

The students noted his solitary habits, spiteful behavior, odd interests, difficulty in forming friendships, emotional changeability, nervousness and paranoia.

"He fulfils seven of the nine criteria for schizoid personality disorder, and, if we must label Gollum's problems, we believe this is the most likely diagnosis," Dr Elizabeth Sampson, who headed the research team, said in the British Medical Journal on Friday.

His two personalities -- Gollum and Smeagol -- convinced some students it was a case of schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder.

But schizophrenia was ruled out because delusions were not in keeping with Gollum's culture. The interaction between the two personalities shows Gollum is aware of both Smeagol and Gollum at the same time, which is inconsistent with multiple personality disorder, in which one is usually suppressed.

His bulging eyes and weight loss also suggests a thyroid problem, they added.

Well it wouldn't play very well because just as the screenwriter said, that is very anti-climatic and there's enough shown to at least honor the spirit of the books......

Honestly, how long do you want to drag out the ending......we have already heard moans and groans, and if you were to add the Scouring, it would be overload and NOT at the core of what they are trying to achieve in the movies....

BTW - I know now the the "Houses of Healing" Song is actually sung by Arwen herself, Liv Tyler .........man, that has to be one of the best songs in the WHOLE TRILOGY......

I disagree with Mav's specifics. For example, the stuff he likes (skulls, PotD) is the stuff I didn't like, and vice versa. Well, one fan's trash is another fan's treasure.

But I do agree with Mav's overall assessment. These are still strong movies with high production values and great acting, but the screenplays aren't tight, for sure. [Honestly, the tightest screenply I've seen is The Hunt For Red October.] At the same time, I'm hesitant to criticize PJ on this. This was not a typical movie with a screenplay that's etched in stone. Given the amount of time and reshoots, LotR at least hangs together.

The RotK EE is in the same LotR tradition as the other two. It's as if the theatrical version is always about 15 minutes too short, and the extended version is always about 30 minutes too long. I long for the in-between balanced cut, where PJ fills the holes but shows restraint on the extraneous crap. If PJ had taken the threatrical cut of RotK and added in:

• the Saruman scene -- to clean up that plotline
• one more Frodo/Sam scene (doesn't really matter which one) -- to make their journey a little more realistic
• the Palantir scene -- to fill in that "taking the bait" plothole
• the Mouth of Sauron -- to give better meaning to "For Frodo"

..you would have had much better movie. I do think PJ could have handled the healing of the wounded folks better too.


Mav, I'm still wondering about the Saruman scene myself. I didn't say this on the LotR boards, but I don't believe it was well-done at all. There's a definite difference between what clearly belongs in the theatrical cut and what doesn't deserve to be there, and you can spot that difference in all three movies. The Saruman scene felt like DVD quality, not theatrical quality. The dialogue was Tolkien, but it didn't feel right. It wasn't even an editing problem. It's like the events were too choppy. The dialog was stilted, the fireball didn't fit in, ditto for the stabbing, the spiked wheel was terrible. And Saruman's CGI fall was inexcusibly bad, as was that cliched "I'm going to hold the staff out stare at it while it breaks" segment.

I'm wondering what the real reason was that PJ cut it. We do know that it was cut very early on in the editing process because Howard Shore didn't write music for the scene until the EE. I know you think it was held back purposely to sell DVD's. For the first time, I'm starting to think this is a legitimate suspicion. I also wonder if it was held back because PJ knew it didn't have that theatrical quality. Or perhaps it was some combination.

Looks like meat's back on the menu ,boys.


My issues with the theatrical were for those reasons. I felt that more than a few scenes had less impact than they should have, and I feel the EE doesn't underplay those scenes.

The cuts weren't enough to make the theatrical a bad movie or anything, far from it, but I really do feel that they hurt enough to hinder the movie's overall greatness. The EE gives those scenes the breathing room that they needed, and made them much stronger.

It's possible that Jackson was unhappy with the Saruman scene, but as early as it was announced that it was cut, he could have fixed anything he didn't like. I think it was just a good old fashion case of milking the crowd, since there were other unresolved plots that waited until the EE for their final scenes. It's becoming a way of life for the movie industry, and not something that Just PJ is guilty of.

The Saruman scene was insane. It was too graphic/ violent for a PG-13 rating. that's why it was cut. period.

Has anyone else noticed that there are little things missing:

-Gimli's comment about a drwarf not daring to go underground
-shelob hunting down frodo right before he gets stung

it's weird. why cut out things???

Really, i thought i remembered hearing Gimli's little passage :?

I just finished watching the whole thing -- those scenes are there. Look again!

I agree with some of the comments here. I liked many of the additions -- the Mouth of Sauron was good, and I liked Sam and Frodo being forced to walk with the orcs near the end, and I even liked Saurman's death scene, while I also agree it wasn't as climactic as it should have been. I also liked the extra scenes with the cursed army.

I timed the ending -- from the "No one should bow to you" scene (where I thought the theatrical film should end) to the real ending was almost 25 minutes of "endings". I think had PJ cut those endings and stuck in a few other cut scenes from earlier the theatrical version would have been better, and then saved all the many endings for the extended DVD instead.

See, this is where I differ with a lot of people in regards to opinions on ROTK. Personally, I loved the ending. Had PJ cut it off at the bowing scene, I know I would have seen it as abrupt and it would have left an unfinished feeling for me and the ending would have essentially destroyed the whole movie for me (endings are incredibly important). Throughout the ending, PJ was able to go back and tie everything together so that everything did indeed end. The heroes got their due respect, the hobbits went back home, and the Frodo/The Havens scene completely solidified how the time had passed for the elves and wizards (it now being the age of man) and that Frodo never did completely heal. MOST IMPORTANTLY, had PJ cut out those scenes, including the marriage scene of Sam, he couldn't include the very final scene with the famous last lines of "I'm Back". This final scene means a lot to the millions of dear fans of the book, and is an incredibly touching, subtle end to a book and now film that was so large and fantastic in scope and fantasy.

So, for me, the ending was amazing. I love how PJ handled it. I couldn't even imagine or have standards of how the ending "should" have ended before I saw the film. The ending was either going to disappoint me or satisfy me right at the very moment I was watching it, and thankfully, it did not.

It's one of the reasons I love ROTK so much and it is my favourite film of three in the trilogy.

PEACE, Mike

Hi MikeQ, where have you been, i haven't seen you for ages.....

And i totally agree with what you said regarding the ending and how it ties in very well with the spirit of the books. As you said, ending with the bowing scene would be too abrupt - too cliched, not allowing for that pivotal final parts of the book. Had it been cut there, the fans would've been outraged and you will hear even more moaning and groaning.

If you loved the books and truly appreciate what Tolkien was trying to do when he wrote that passage, there should be no problems with the ending.....

ARWEN's Song: Houses Of Healing

http://www.livejournal.com/community/lo ... 52105.html



With a sigh you turn away,
With a deepening heart no words to say
You will find that the world has changed forever
Trees are now turning from green to gold
And the sun is now fading
I wish I could hold you closer

You can download an MP3 of that song here:
http://www.hdr-see.de/videos/arwenssong.mp3

I love this song, can't get enough of it......

I understand your points about the ending, but there were so many other parts I liked that I wanted in instead. I mean, obviously, on the Extended version those endings are completely appropriate and wanted. And I think that's the key -- I am not a huge fan of the books (I mean, I liked them, but I'm no fanboy) and the things that matter to fans should be in the extended versions, whereas the theatrical version should be more "mainstream" if you catch my meaning.

I'm not sure you know this, but it was never really "announced" that the scene was cut. The fans, and Christopher Lee apparently, only found out just before the theatrical release. Christopher Lee was angry. It was only later that somebody dug out an interview from Howard Shore saying that Shore hadn't written music.

The director/writer commentary confirms my suspicion of the Saruman scene. Fran and Phillipa agree that if they had written it to be in a theatrical version (either the end of TTT of start of RotK), they "would have made other choices" in how they wrote it. It leads me to believe that that scene was a DVD-sort of scene from the beginning. The scene had been a problem since TTT.

Hey MikeV, I too know that so many non-loonies felt RotK should have ended at the Coronation. But my view is this: PJ has spent most of the past three (or seven) years pandering to the newbies with all the CGI and plot changes and keeping the movies under three hours. Meanwhile, Tolkien was getting a bit of the shaft, and the fans were stuck waiting for a small-screen version of what they wanted to see. After all this time, I see nothing wrong whatsoever with "forcing" the general audience to see a little bit -- in fact the most important bit -- of real Tolkien. As for the Hollywoodized ADD crowd, I'll buy them some cheese to go with their whine.