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 Der Untergang (Downfall) 
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:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: SOLD FREAKING OUT! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

My luck, a freaking movie about Hitler that's over two-and-a-half hours long and its sold out!


Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:38 pm
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Oh no! I was hoping to get a full review from you too!

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Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:38 pm
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dolcevita wrote:
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: SOLD FREAKING OUT! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

My luck, a freaking movie about Hitler that's over two-and-a-half hours long and its sold out!


:evil:

Well, I am glad you're planning to see it! Let us know as soon as you'll manage! :D

[-o< for Dolce to like it

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Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:22 am
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Well, let me tell you Lecter, I can't hate it, because I agree with you it was a very ambitious project. I don't know if it was entirely successful, but its alot better than half the trash I've seen. I have some problems with how they depicted Hitler, the largest one being a complete lack of military finesse...something that clearly isn't true. They made him a bit too nuts on the exterior, but he was a man known for pomp and circumstance, good performance, etc. But I do find the space very intersting. It took me until I was maybe ten to even begin fathoming what happened after Hitler fell, but this is it. I'm glad they didn't over-analyze everyone freaking out, and that half the suicides felt random, because I'm sure they were.

I need to think about this one more before I do a full review, but it definately had a smart foundation.


You'll also know that I went after class to a matinee 12.10 showing and there were still a good 60 people in the theatre. Its definatley getting attention here, but I think its already at capacity. I don't see this getting as wide distribution as even The Sea Inside.


Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:46 pm
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The one suicide scene was pretty shocking, I thought. I think you know which one I'm talking about. :)


Well, I am glad you liked it, Dolce and I am looking forward to hearing more from you on it. As far as his military finesse goes, I think it was good over a long amount of time, but the events, as depicted in the movie stick very much to the reality as described by those who have survived, mostly by his secretary and some lower-ranked officers who have witnessed him in his last days. Apparently, he was really moving around army squads that didn't even exist in first place.

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Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:53 pm
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Yeah, I have no doubt he was, but what I meant to say is how they showed him falling apart at the scenes rather than letting the actions speak for themselves. You see all these other characters around him (like his wife) that seem in full capability, and are composed, and they're killing themselves too. But rather than have him move those armies around (existant or not) calmly and with his notorious demand, you see him sweating and spitting and his comb-over hair falling in his face and, well, you get the picture. I had alot less problems with everyone else in the film than him. But honestly, that's a ton of screen time for Hitler, especially considering the fact that he is never shown in movies about WWII or the Holocaust. Either they have clips of him in a car driving through the masses (or something along those lines) or they have nothing. I don't think there was actually one image of him in Schindlers List or in Piantist. So I can understand the impossible task of actually depicting this guy (both as far as direction and acting), there's no presedence for it.

Right now I'm leaning towards something in the B or B+ range. Pretty good, might change (higher, but not lower) depending on letting it sink in a bit. Yes, I know which suicide scene you're talking about, and that was the least shocking to me actually. It felt like the most melodramatic bit in a movie that really avoided that for the most part.


Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:03 pm
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Well, in any case, I'm glad you liked it quite a bit. I believe that with time going by, you'll grow to like it even more. Well, at least that's how it was for me. I consider this movie close to a masterpiece and it's still in my TOP 5 of 2004. Didn't you think that Bruno Ganz' portrayal of Hitler was nothing short of oscar-worthy?


By the way, the movie has finally made it onto IMDB's TOP 250 and it keeps rising \:D/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363163/

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Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:11 pm
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Well, Bruno is one of the biggest oldest names in current film. He's not going to be nominated for a role ever mostly because we keep the acting roles domestic, and because he's been around too long. He tends to pick really hard roles rather than chrismatic ones. No Roberto coming out of the blue to die for his son. But he will always be well respected everywhere, and has built a formidable catalogue of roles. It really did take someone like him to pull it off. Had a younger lesser known man done it, people would accuse the actor of capitalizing on controversey to further a career. We don't have to worry about Bruno, his career is about as far along as any man out there right now. A seasoned veteran. Really, I'm surprised anyone had the guts to pick up this role for the very reason I just stated.

An aside, Der Untergand. The literal translation, is that The Downfall, or The Underground (referencing the bunker)? For a long time I mis-titled this as Underground, and now I see why.


Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:28 am
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dolcevita wrote:
Well, Bruno is one of the biggest oldest names in current film. He's not going to be nominated for a role ever mostly because we keep the acting roles domestic, and because he's been around too long. He tends to pick really hard roles rather than chrismatic ones. No Roberto coming out of the blue to die for his son. But he will always be well respected everywhere, and has built a formidable catalogue of roles. It really did take someone like him to pull it off. Had a younger lesser known man done it, people would accuse the actor of capitalizing on controversey to further a career. We don't have to worry about Bruno, his career is about as far along as any man out there right now. A seasoned veteran. Really, I'm surprised anyone had the guts to pick up this role for the very reason I just stated.

An aside, Der Untergand. The literal translation, is that The Downfall, or The Underground (referencing the bunker)? For a long time I mis-titled this as Underground, and now I see why.


The translation is Downfall. The Underground would be Der Untergrund.

Also, Downfall isn't eligible for any Oscars next year just like Hero wasn't last year for the mere reason because it has already been nominated as Best Foreign Picture and can't therefore be nominated next year.

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Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:06 am
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I hope you don't mind if I link to your review, Dolce ;)

http://www.worldofkj.com/Galia-Downfall.php

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Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:31 am
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This is a big turkey...

It's too repetitive. It's too gruesome. It's too long.

Props to Bruno, but god damnit, this is just a BAAAD film. I've never been so pissed leaving a movie theater. Had the movie not been about "Teh FUROR" but had I still known that the movie would be close to its finish when the main character died, I STILL would've wanted the main character to blow his brains out. As soon as possible.

I mean, yesh. It's historical and important. But, how many times can you watch the Russians drop bombs? How many times can you watch people kill themselves? How many times can you watch officers disobey those in charge? It's all the same thing. Over and over and over again...There's very little that's enlightening, and, the depressing (the scene with the soldier w/ the gun in his mouth just about did it for me...) isn't even all that insightful because we've seen it five times over.

Plus, at least Almodovar was PASSIONATE about Bad Education. But this!? Did the director even care? Unless you focus on the beginning scene and the final scene, there's not even a hint at what the director's purpose is. It's a matter-of-fact film that deserves to be on the History Channel for those who want a looong detailed analysis, NOT a theatre where innocent moviegoers convinced by a cannibal in Bonn go to waste $8 AND what seems like 20 hours.

D+

It looks good technically, I guess... :roll:


Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:59 pm
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I think you're kidding.

But if you're not, you are in serious trouble :evil:

I still think you are.

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Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:03 pm
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In fact, this is one of the best movies I have seen in recent years.

This movie treats everyone as normal human beings and doesn't treats them as monsters or [super heros] -- I love this idea.


Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:07 pm
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mary wrote:
In fact, this is one of the best movies I have seen in recent years.

This movie treats everyone as normal human beings and doesn't treats them as monsters or [super heros] -- I love this idea.


Ha! You're one of my new favorite posters now! :mrgreen:

I agree. That aspect is what made the movie special.

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Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:15 pm
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He's not kidding, Lecter. He told me.

I told him you'd be after him. :wink:


Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:15 pm
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Oh I will be. I think he shall have his moderating rights of Cinemania taken away now as he obviously has little idea of movies [-(

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Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:16 pm
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Maybe a D+ isn't right, but it's still in the C-range. I can only praise the secretary (One of the 50000000002828292 Frou's), Bruno, and the research that went into the movie.


Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:22 pm
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I think that everyone should respect the opinion from eacth other.


Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:27 pm
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torrino wrote:
This is a big turkey...

It's too repetitive. It's too gruesome. It's too long.


So its like every other Holocaust movie on the planet. :wink: Your point?

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Props to Bruno, but god damnit, this is just a BAAAD film. I've never been so pissed leaving a movie theater. Had the movie not been about "Teh FUROR" but had I still known that the movie would be close to its finish when the main character died, I STILL would've wanted the main character to blow his brains out. As soon as possible.


But it is about Hitler. I don't think you realize how big a feat that actually is. I won't say this didn't have short-comings, but its about the last few days in the bunker. What were you expecting. I'm glad it demystified his suicide, and didn't provide some false insight that could not possibly have actually been fathomed.

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I mean, yesh. It's historical and important. But, how many times can you watch the Russians drop bombs? How many times can you watch people kill themselves? How many times can you watch officers disobey those in charge? It's all the same thing. Over and over and over again...There's very little that's enlightening, and, the depressing (the scene with the soldier w/ the gun in his mouth just about did it for me...) isn't even all that insightful because we've seen it five times over.

The Holocaust and WWII were all about excess. About the excess of technology, proceedure, death, automization. Anything you're going to see, you're going to see ten times more. That's what made it a WW instead of just a U.N. blind-sided genocide. It was researched. i'm sure everyone you see kill themselves really did kill them selves, and probably in about that span of time. The disobeying is one thing that got a bit stale. Not as an action, but how much attention they seemed to pay to the empotional struggle around it. A weak point. It would have been very poignant if effectively made in light of some of the prison stuff in Iraq. About obeying orders, etc.

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Plus, at least Almodovar was PASSIONATE about Bad Education. But this!? Did the director even care? Unless you focus on the beginning scene and the final scene, there's not even a hint at what the director's purpose is. It's a matter-of-fact film that deserves to be on the History Channel for those who want a looong detailed analysis, NOT a theatre where innocent moviegoers convinced by a cannibal in Bonn go to waste $8 AND what seems like 20 hours.

D+

It looks good technically, I guess... :roll:


When did Almo become part of this? To get me involved? :razz: Passion is shown in different ways. This film, was very tense (not intense, tense) that doesn't necessarily mean its not passionate. I think the director had to have a reason for wanting to do this specific movie that had to do a bit with doucumenting the man before he slips into the mythological pantheon of history book "bad guys." Its not going to feel the same as other movies, Spanish or otherwise. If any comparison should be made, it should be with Blind Spot. Which i haven't seen yet. I wonder, has anyone here?


Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:54 pm
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mary wrote:
I think that everyone should respect the opinion from eacth other.


That's true. I make an exception in torrino's case, though :razz:

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Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:50 pm
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1. It isn't about the Holocaust. It's about WWII. Biiig difference, no? ;). But, I'm referring to how nothing new happens. It's the same old thing over and over again.

2. Oh, I realize it. The point you quoted was about the length and how, since I knew it would end once Hitler killed himself (which it, sadly, DIDN'T), I WANTED to see the guy die.

3. Yeah, but the thing is, why should I watch a film where it happens over and over and over again. There's just nothing new to each thing and the blowing up/the suicides/the planning could easily have been cut for the sake of my ass. There wasn't any progression. Nothing changed. It's like recording paint dry for ten minutes and then watching it over ten times. The length of the film and the violence (ugh, that scene is still in my mouth - with the blood splattering against the wall after the guy killed himself) just made it even harder to watch. It felt like the actual thing and, frankly, it should only be meant for historians. There's no development. It just gets worse and worse.

4. Almodovar came into it because Lecter said that Bad Education had no purpose. That there wasn't any passion in it. And, I'm still wondering why this director made the film. If he wanted to portray Hitler as human, well, he could've done that by showing MORE. If he wanted to illustrate how much the German officials were hiding, he could've done that by showing MORE. If he wanted to focus on the secretary's perspective, he could've. But, as a whole, it doesn't work.

I raised it to a C+ but I'm still very disappointed.


Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:08 pm
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torrino wrote:
1. It isn't about the Holocaust. It's about WWII. Biiig difference, no? ;). But, I'm referring to how nothing new happens. It's the same old thing over and over again.


Not seperated. The technology developed during the era served both the war and the extermintation. Hitler stood, obviously, at the intersection of both. This is about him, so it is about both aspects of the war.

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2. Oh, I realize it. The point you quoted was about the length and how, since I knew it would end once Hitler killed himself (which it, sadly, DIDN'T), I WANTED to see the guy die.


It could have used a bit tighter editing, but it was an exploration of the suicide first and foremost. I expected alot of it, I'm not sure what you were. his suicide is famous for having kicked off many, I would have been disheartned if it had chosen to end with him rather than showing the collapse and hysteria of the Nazis is the aftermath. I wish there had been a bit about how their discemination to other countries, but I realize the time frame is different.

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3. Yeah, but the thing is, why should I watch a film where it happens over and over and over again. There's just nothing new to each thing and the blowing up/the suicides/the planning could easily have been cut for the sake of my ass. There wasn't any progression. Nothing changed. It's like recording paint dry for ten minutes and then watching it over ten times. The length of the film and the violence (ugh, that scene is still in my mouth - with the blood splattering against the wall after the guy killed himself) just made it even harder to watch. It felt like the actual thing and, frankly, it should only be meant for historians. There's no development. It just gets worse and worse.


Perhaps, but while I agree with you, I see that as positive. I think it was meant for historians. I already mentioned above that this film was more for fleshing out accounts of the man (in film) before his figure dropped out of the collective global memory. We can sit here and say impossible, but I'm talking about his historical figure specifically, not WWII or the Holocaust. It would be very easy to lose alot of information about him, as most film (and probably other forms of media, but I can't vouch for them) shy away from dealing with him directly. Yes, its not an action movie or for the everyday viewer. It did feel long, my butt hurt too. I just don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.

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4. Almodovar came into it because Lecter said that Bad Education had no purpose. That there wasn't any passion in it. And, I'm still wondering why this director made the film. If he wanted to portray Hitler as human, well, he could've done that by showing MORE. If he wanted to illustrate how much the German officials were hiding, he could've done that by showing MORE. If he wanted to focus on the secretary's perspective, he could've. But, as a whole, it doesn't work.

I raised it to a C+ but I'm still very disappointed.


I think you're looking for the director to invest a more tangible narrative into the final days (being human, hiding, the secretary, etc) and I think his decision was not to, since it is a very illusive and unfathomable space. He could only guess if Hitler was more human, that the officers were hiding stuff, or what the secretary was thinking. She apparently told you how disengaged she was in the interview material in the beginning an end. She's keeping her hands clear (for obvious reasons) so all you're going to get about the experience from accounts is a detail of external events (who got killed where, etc). We don't know nything else about it. Its a historic account, but dramatized. It would have felt better to you as a documentary? Using footage and such? Docudramas can be odd in straddling the line like that. I take them case by case. I find the nuetrality of Gunner Palace to be its downfall, and the nuetrality in Downfall to be its saving grace.


Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:34 pm
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I hate doing the quote thing.

1. It's not even about him, dolce. Him and his secretary share an equal amount of time on screen, and, considering that, I think it's more about the end of WWII in Germany. Not exactly Hitler himself. Very little refers to the extermination, outside of, say, 3 convos in the movie.

2. Yeah, but it just got tiring! How many suicides must you watch before you get the point?

3. I can't really defend a film, AS a good film, if it's that repetitive. If it aired on the History channel, well, yeah, I'd praise it. As a film, though, it doesn't have the flow necessary. It feels like a TV Movie at times, too. It's just so straightforward.

4. Yeah, it should've been a documentary. I just don't understand the filmaker's motive. What's his point in making Downfall? Why'd he spend the money to endlessly research it? What does he care? I was kinda offended, though, when the filmmakers used dramatic music at the end to sum up everyone's death/fate. Why should I care whether or not this german dude or that german dude died and how he died? That's another problem - there's too many people. Who can keep up with them! In the end, during the RIP's (or, seemingly so :mad: :mad: :mad:), I couldn't even remember half the characters and what their functions were.

I just can't call this a masterpiece. It's far from it. It isn't edited well, it feels like Gone With the Wind, and the suicides are relentless. There are better ways of making a film...

BTW, I didn't love Gunner Palace but I didn't hate it. It got a pretty good crowd reaction, though. Frankly, even if FH is biased, I love Moore's spunk. He just seems to care much more about the material and he's got a good eye.


Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:48 pm
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torrino wrote:
I hate doing the quote thing.

1. It's not even about him, dolce. Him and his secretary share an equal amount of time on screen, and, considering that, I think it's more about the end of WWII in Germany. Not exactly Hitler himself. Very little refers to the extermination, outside of, say, 3 convos in the movie.

2. Yeah, but it just got tiring! How many suicides must you watch before you get the point?

3. I can't really defend a film, AS a good film, if it's that repetitive. If it aired on the History channel, well, yeah, I'd praise it. As a film, though, it doesn't have the flow necessary. It feels like a TV Movie at times, too. It's just so straightforward.

4. Yeah, it should've been a documentary. I just don't understand the filmaker's motive. What's his point in making Downfall? Why'd he spend the money to endlessly research it? What does he care? I was kinda offended, though, when the filmmakers used dramatic music at the end to sum up everyone's death/fate. Why should I care whether or not this german dude or that german dude died and how he died? That's another problem - there's too many people. Who can keep up with them! In the end, during the RIP's (or, seemingly so :mad: :mad: :mad:), I couldn't even remember half the characters and what their functions were.

I just can't call this a masterpiece. It's far from it. It isn't edited well, it feels like Gone With the Wind, and the suicides are relentless. There are better ways of making a film...

BTW, I didn't love Gunner Palace but I didn't hate it. It got a pretty good crowd reaction, though. Frankly, even if FH is biased, I love Moore's spunk. He just seems to care much more about the material and he's got a good eye.



1. The film is about him, but it is told from the perspective of his secretary as she was one of the few to survive it all, obviously. She observates, but she serves as a key to Hitler's humainty in the movie.

The movie doesn't address Holocaust much because it is not about the Holocaust. Does every single WW II movie have to bring up the issue?


2. Tiring or not, this is the realism, this is how it happened. It's like saying: "Why wasn't the sequence at the Omaha Beach in the beginning of Saving Private Ryan one minute long as the whole shooting is repeptitive?"


3. Oh so every single movie needs to be twisted to be good? ;)


4. Well, that has got to do with your attention span then, as no one I know (including myself) had much problems to keep up with it. Even if you didn't follow the movie very carefully, many of those poeple were historical figures. As for the purpose of the movie, I think I have told you already what it is, but I can sum it up here. The movie goes the unique way of showing Hitler not as a monster and a pure evil, but much rather a very flawd human being.

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Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:41 pm
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Well then it certaintly didn't achieve THAT purpose because I still see Hitler as a guy who deserves that anal torture that he got in "Little Nicky." Plus, he only appears in, like, an eigth of the scenes. If that's the point, well, cut the film.

Dr. Lecter, I don't need to sit through all of it. When you've seen three people in a row commit suicide, and then the movie ends, you've seen enough. Why have 20!? It just got nasty...

Also, the secretary serves as a key to Hitler's humanity!? Wow. I kind of recall her at the end wishing she had never gotten into it.


Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:44 pm
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