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Johnny Dollar
The Lubitsch Touch
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:48 pm Posts: 11019
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
Shack wrote: Trix is right, as much as been made about the moral heaviness of the film, deep down it's still as typical a story as you can get for the genre. The "Turns out the family member and cop are secretly guilty" twist... yawn. But....it's not that simple. Shack wrote: I also thought the Johnny Petrio storyline was hugely random and useless in comparison to the rest of the movie. It's the equivalent of "Oh yeah, I killed a guy too. Let me tell you about that for 20 minutes before we get back to the story. Intermission!" The choice Casey makes at the end of that episode leads directly to the one he makes at the end of the film. This sequence is absolutely integral to the journey of the character.
_________________ k
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:51 pm |
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Dr. Lecter
You must have big rats
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:28 pm Posts: 92093 Location: Bonn, Germany
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
yoshue wrote: Shack wrote: I also thought the Johnny Petrio storyline was hugely random and useless in comparison to the rest of the movie. It's the equivalent of "Oh yeah, I killed a guy too. Let me tell you about that for 20 minutes before we get back to the story. Intermission!" The choice Casey makes at the end of that episode leads directly to the one he makes at the end of the film. This sequence is absolutely integral to the journey of the character. I absolutely agree about this. I usually hate it when others say that...but to dismiss this part of the film is useless and unnecessary means that the message the film is trying to convey wasn't quite understood.
_________________The greatest thing on earth is to love and to be loved in return!
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:53 pm |
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Shack
Devil's Advocate
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am Posts: 37974
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
Felt like the point would've been made just fine without that segment. At least to me anyways.
_________________Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:01 pm |
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Gulli
Jordan Mugen-Honda
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 9:53 am Posts: 13400
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
Shack wrote: I was chuckling whenever the film went into tough guy Boston mode. Hi, Ben Affleck, not everyone in Boston is a druggie who carrys a gun and says fuck every 5 words. Particularly in the first half, the bar confrontation was bad, but the Cheeze scene tops it. I can't believe he actually said "bitches love cheddar." That might be THE unintentionally funny quote of the year.
Affleck didn't treat these side characters like real people at all, they're just drugged up silly pawns. Most of the small roles in the film, the druggies, are just thugs. After all the hype and success of Ryan diverting stereotypes, everyone else in the movie is exactly how you'd expect and hope they wouldn't be.
Me about to sleep and I run into this. The films base of operations is in the lower sewers of society and hence its characters are perfectly in line with reality. The worst aspects of that reality? Yes, but the film doesn't make any of the assumptions you seem to, it doesn't say EVERYONE in this area is like this hence you're entire supposition is erroneous in the extreme. This isn't Crash where you have Ludacris spouting dialogue better suited to a Plato scholar before carjacking Sandra Bollock, all the characters are consistent with the societal niche they are found in.
_________________ Rosberg was reminded of the fuel regulations by his wheel's ceasing to turn. The hollow noise from the fuel tank and needle reading zero had failed to convay this message
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:02 pm |
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Johnny Dollar
The Lubitsch Touch
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:48 pm Posts: 11019
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
That sequence allows the Affleck character to define his moral code, at it were, which leads to his selfish, self-righteous decision at the end.
Among other thematic values.
_________________ k
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:03 pm |
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Gulli
Jordan Mugen-Honda
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 9:53 am Posts: 13400
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
loyalfromlondon wrote: It's actually not far removed from the Crash universe,
You crazy man, I shall bust a cap on yo ass!!
_________________ Rosberg was reminded of the fuel regulations by his wheel's ceasing to turn. The hollow noise from the fuel tank and needle reading zero had failed to convay this message
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:12 pm |
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Shack
Devil's Advocate
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am Posts: 37974
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
yoshue wrote: That sequence allows the Affleck character to define his moral code, at it were, which leads to his selfish, self-righteous decision at the end.
Among other thematic values. Wouldn't the decision be enough to define his moral code? If the message is Casey is self-righteous, the end and along with his actions throughout the film (like trying to take the Cheeze negotiations into his own hands), tells us what we need to know about him without the pedophile sequence spelling it out again.
_________________Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:13 pm |
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Johnny Dollar
The Lubitsch Touch
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:48 pm Posts: 11019
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
The shooting is when he 'takes the law into his own hands,' as such. The cops all applaud, they've done it too. But Casey is young, inexperienced, without a fully formed moral code, good or bad. This action eats at our hero, he rebels from Harris and his ilk. Thus, at the end, he's going to do the right thing, the lawful thing, no matter what it does to the poor girl; he's chosen moral self-righteousness over the welfare of a child.
_________________ k
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:20 pm |
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Shack
Devil's Advocate
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am Posts: 37974
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
Or you can argue Casey was already self-righteous. Again, being a private detective, trying to take hold of the Cheeze thing, making the promise to Ryan. The only thing the Petrio story did was lay it out for the audience, in a random subplot that was jarring when put next to the otherwise tight series of events.
_________________Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:29 pm |
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Gulli
Jordan Mugen-Honda
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 9:53 am Posts: 13400
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
Shack wrote: Or you can argue Casey was already self-righteous. Again, being a private detective, trying to take hold of the Cheeze thing, making the promise to Ryan. The only thing the Petrio story did was lay it out for the audience in a random subplot that was jarring when put next to the otherwise tight series of events. No you couldn't. He decided to deal directly with Cheeze because he knew him personally and knowing his volatile nature knew that he'd have a far better chance of getting the kid back alive then if the cops went in. The promise to Ryan's character occurred when she broke down in tears and needed comfort of any kind, his reaction was a perfectly natural human thing to do.
_________________ Rosberg was reminded of the fuel regulations by his wheel's ceasing to turn. The hollow noise from the fuel tank and needle reading zero had failed to convay this message
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:33 pm |
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Shack
Devil's Advocate
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am Posts: 37974
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
Those events can be interpreted both ways
Casey killed the pedophile because he was already self-righteous... People are what they are, maybe he didn't accept it on the surface yet, but that, like the last decision and his entire line of duty, showed it.
_________________Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:38 pm |
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Gulli
Jordan Mugen-Honda
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 9:53 am Posts: 13400
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
Shack wrote: Those events can be interpreted both ways
Casey killed the pedophile because he was already self-righteous... People are what they are, maybe he didn't accept it on the surface yet, but that, like the last decision and his entire line of duty, showed it. woah woah woah So your saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that if you burst into a room and found a kid dead and the murderer beside you that you wouldn't have an urge to kill that person? Its pure deep rage the character felt that would have stripped away any logical or measured thoughts. Some people would have pulled back, some (like this character) would not, but to call it self-righteous is just wrong in my view.
_________________ Rosberg was reminded of the fuel regulations by his wheel's ceasing to turn. The hollow noise from the fuel tank and needle reading zero had failed to convay this message
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:44 pm |
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Johnny Dollar
The Lubitsch Touch
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:48 pm Posts: 11019
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
Shack, killing the pedophile brought about the change in Affleck. By the end of the movie, he would have no longer made a choice like that. His final decision is, at least in part, a stab at absolution (Catholic guilt, baby!) for his sin. He puts this need for forgiveness ahead of the Amanda's safety. All because of his sin. Catholicism dripped from this movie like blood from a barber's chair on fleet street.
_________________ k
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:48 pm |
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kypade
Kypade
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:53 pm Posts: 7908
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
I think its a silly argument all around, personally, because even if you find it unnecessary, it makes all kinds of thematic and narrative sense.
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:50 pm |
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Christian
Team Kris
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:02 pm Posts: 27584 Location: The Damage Control Table
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
Ah yes, Catholic Guilt. Shaping lives since 33 A.D.
_________________A hot man once wrote: Urgh, I have to throw out half my underwear because it's too tight.
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:52 pm |
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Gulli
Jordan Mugen-Honda
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 9:53 am Posts: 13400
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
Christian wrote: Ah yes, Catholic Guilt. Shaping lives since 33 A.D. Never underestimate it. I'm still in the process of getting rid of mine, takes bloody ages!!
_________________ Rosberg was reminded of the fuel regulations by his wheel's ceasing to turn. The hollow noise from the fuel tank and needle reading zero had failed to convay this message
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:55 pm |
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Shack
Devil's Advocate
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am Posts: 37974
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
I guess that's where the disagreement is. I felt Casey was self-righteous from the beginning as a private detective and through tons of examples (I didn't even mention before the opening monologue where he treats himself like a hero who has to "protect" the children of his neighbourhood) and would've made the decision anyways. The "changing" scene felt like hammering on a motivation that the film and character didn't need.
_________________Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227
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Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:55 pm |
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Shack
Devil's Advocate
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am Posts: 37974
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
Think this got a bit carried away.
_________________Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227
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Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:00 am |
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Gulli
Jordan Mugen-Honda
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 9:53 am Posts: 13400
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
Shack wrote: Think this got a bit carried away. Not at all, no swearing or personal insults thrown I'd call this fun
_________________ Rosberg was reminded of the fuel regulations by his wheel's ceasing to turn. The hollow noise from the fuel tank and needle reading zero had failed to convay this message
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Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:03 am |
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Johnny Dollar
The Lubitsch Touch
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:48 pm Posts: 11019
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
Yeah, what went too far about this? Just discussing the movie!
_________________ k
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Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:09 am |
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trixster
loyalfromlondon
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:31 pm Posts: 19697 Location: ville-marie
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
I disagree with you that it got carried away, Shack. In fact, that's one of the more intelligent and mature discussions I've seen on this site, film-related or not.
As for the film.... my problem wasn't so much that I didn't believe the journey the character underwent, it was more that I got tired of being bashed over the head with the morality this film is displaying. I just found it heavy-handed. Not to mention that the twists were laid out exactly as they are in a generic crime thriller, with the flashbacks and all that. The film tries to pass itself off as something more with the moral dilemmas, but when it comes down to it, it's just another crime thriller with a double twist ending.
_________________Magic Mike wrote: zwackerm wrote: If John Wick 2 even makes 30 million I will eat 1,000 shoes. Same. Algren wrote: I don't think. I predict.
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Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:47 am |
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Shack
Devil's Advocate
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:30 am Posts: 37974
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
What I meant was, I ended up complaining about the subplot for a bigger reason than I intended. For the most part my original complaint was that a whole seperate subplot like that felt like a disruption. It wasn't the changing scene itself that bugged me, it was the jarring way it was presented. But I kinda got into it and eventually took jabs at the entire scene (which I still feel is a bit of a hammerhead moment).
_________________Shack’s top 50 tv shows - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90227
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Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:24 am |
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Dr. Lecter
You must have big rats
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:28 pm Posts: 92093 Location: Bonn, Germany
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
Shack wrote: Felt like the point would've been made just fine without that segment. At least to me anyways. But before that incident, Affleck's decision would have been different.
_________________The greatest thing on earth is to love and to be loved in return!
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Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:03 am |
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Dr. Lecter
You must have big rats
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:28 pm Posts: 92093 Location: Bonn, Germany
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
I can understand most of the complaints, also those trixster makes in his reviews.
But really, to call the pedophile subplot unnecessary is as if you said that the kidnapping of Tim Robins as a kid in Mystic River was an unnecessary distraction as well. Like it or not, these were the intergral parts of erach film.
_________________The greatest thing on earth is to love and to be loved in return!
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Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:08 am |
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paper
Artie the One-Man Party
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:53 pm Posts: 4632
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Re: Gone Baby Gone
All I know is this: Quote: I was chuckling whenever the film went into tough guy Boston mode. Hi, Ben Affleck, not everyone in Boston is a druggie who carrys a gun and says fuck every 5 words. In lower class South and East Boston? Think again. I don't live too far away from either location.
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Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:01 am |
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