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New Objectives for Gay Leadership
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Author:  dolcevita [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  New Objectives for Gay Leadership
Is log cabin becoming the new ideal?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/09/national/09gays.html?
ei=5094&en=eb98fb148fb10f1a&hp=&ex=1102568400&adxnnl=1&partner=
homepage&adxnnlx=1102568639-V6GZCfdx01xyMmjbs2635w wrote:

Groups Debate Slower Strategy on Gay Rights

LOS ANGELES, Dec. 8 - Leaders of the gay rights movement are embroiled in a bitter and increasingly public debate over whether they should moderate their goals in the wake of bruising losses in November when 11 states approved constitutional amendments prohibiting same-sex marriages.

In the past week alone, the Human Rights Campaign, the nation's largest gay and lesbian advocacy group, has accepted the resignation of its executive director, appointed its first non-gay board co-chairman and adopted a new, more moderate strategy, with less emphasis on legalizing same-sex marriages and more on strengthening personal relationships.

The leadership of the Human Rights Campaign, at a meeting last weekend in Las Vegas, concluded that the group must bow to political reality and moderate its message and its goals. One official said the group would consider supporting President Bush's efforts to privatize Social Security partly in exchange for the right of gay partners to receive benefits under the program...

But others involved in the drive for gay and lesbian equality say the Human Rights Campaign's approach smacks of pre-emptive surrender and wrong-headed political calculation.

"For a certain segment of the movement, for which I would certainly elect the H.R.C. as poster child, it means that the error was that we were wanting too much too fast," said Jonathan D. Katz, executive coordinator of the Larry Kramer Initiative for Lesbian and Gay Studies at Yale. "It is entirely characteristic for them to believe that what is required is a sort of retrenchment and a return to a more moderate message. They are, of course, completely wrong."...


I hope not. So the recruitment to the current ideals save all ways but one. This is in fact why social program oriented agendas are losing out to the privatization world. Because somehow the discussion can be curtailed from "us" to "me." No longer about creating broad coalitions of the under-represented or disillusioned, now social security can be private as long as it doesn't screw me and my gay partner over. Even if it screws up people elsewhere.

Its a slippery slope. On one hand, I see how it could work. Part of the arguements around approaching things from a federal legislation (or even state) can empower groups, while privatization *in theory* puts everyone on an equal playing groung as an individual. On the other hand, the sense of individuality overrides any sense of communal responsibility, and instead of being the United States, its the United Me...and perhaps anyone I choose to associate with.

Well, it could break down the immediate need for benefits, but in the long-term completely errode discussions around lifestyles and groups being respected in broad American society.

Good fences don't make good neighbors. So how, after the most recent defeat, has the discussion come around of building up even more fences instead of continueing to try and break them down. Don't like the Berlin Wall? Just build another one? Just as long as you're given financial equality, who cares if you're not given the same rights and priviledges under government law?

Well, I don't think privatization is the way to go necessarily, so its clearly colouring my view, but it is interesting to see recruitment of the opposition at its finest. This has the smell of rustic wood all over it.
Author:  lovemerox [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:28 am ]
Post subject: 
I don't think its a very good Idea. I don't think they should give in at all...keep fighting, although it seems like an uphill battle, eventually with time and effort i think things will change. It seems as if they are grasping...trying to take anything they can get(privatized social security) when they should be able to get THE SAME THINGS heteros are getting without any sort of...comprimise if thats the right word for it
Author:  dolcevita [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:37 am ]
Post subject: 
lovemerox wrote:
I don't think its a very good Idea. I don't think they should give in at all...keep fighting, although it seems like an uphill battle, eventually with time and effort i think things will change. It seems as if they are grasping...trying to take anything they can get(privatized social security) when they should be able to get THE SAME THINGS heteros are getting without any sort of...comprimise if thats the right word for it


Well that's the arguement. They would be getting the same thing (extension of benefits to spouse) but through a private providor rather than the government. Its a shift in focus for sure, but it completely removes any responsibilty from the government's hands about how it treats its citizens. Well, one could argue that it is treating all its citizens equally by having each one apply though private providors, but that only handles the financial aspects of it, and not the social ones. Unadressed social issues will seep into the private provision as well. I see this

1. Winning the battle but compromising the outcome of the war

2. Making this entire issue of gay rights into one of financial rights, which ultimately places value on the dollar more than anything else. I don't like that. Arguements around accepting gay lifestyles shouldn't just be about the paycheck. Furthermore, its the type of pay check being endorsed here that is also an issue. Which is where my distaste for privitazation of such things as health care and education come out a bit.
Author:  lovemerox [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:59 am ]
Post subject: 
dolcevita wrote:
lovemerox wrote:
I don't think its a very good Idea. I don't think they should give in at all...keep fighting, although it seems like an uphill battle, eventually with time and effort i think things will change. It seems as if they are grasping...trying to take anything they can get(privatized social security) when they should be able to get THE SAME THINGS heteros are getting without any sort of...comprimise if thats the right word for it


Well that's the arguement. They would be getting the same thing (extension of benefits to spouse) but through a private providor rather than the government. Its a shift in focus for sure, but it completely removes any responsibilty from the government's hands about how it treats its citizens. Well, one could argue that it is treating all its citizens equally by having each one apply though private providors, but that only handles the financial aspects of it, and not the social ones. Unadressed social issues will seep into the private provision as well. I see this

1. Winning the battle but compromising the outcome of the war

2. Making this entire issue of gay rights into one of financial rights, which ultimately places value on the dollar more than anything else. I don't like that. Arguements around accepting gay lifestyles shouldn't just be about the paycheck. Furthermore, its the type of pay check being endorsed here that is also an issue. Which is where my distaste for privitazation of such things as health care and education come out a bit.



Do you think gays should comprimise the war? Since they "won" the battle?

So can we just forget about the government ever accepting gays as normal human beings....I mean, by saying its "taken out of the governments hands" I suppose is a good thing...should we not be fighting for the governement to recognize homosexuals and grant them the same rights as everyone else?

Women did it, African Americans did it, and so can homosexuals. Although there is still MUCH prejudice today against the previous two minorities, things have certainly gotten better. Thats not to say things are not "good" I prefer decent, for homosexuals today but I think its an uphill battle that shouldnt be let down.

Are we on the same page here? Am I making sense to your posts or do I look foolish? :oops:
Author:  andaroo1 [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:22 am ]
Post subject: 
Everything takes time.

The main thrust of gay rights has only been really in motion for the last 15 years. In that time the entire world has been altered a little and has become 1000000% more gay-friendly.

Prejudice and hatred and fear all go away in time, but you can't expect people to change overnight.

Time and persistence is what it takes.

The people fighting against homosexual marriage are largely fighting a losing battle. They may be "winning" in recent months but they will never be able to put the genie back in the bottle regarding this issue. It will just take time.
Author:  Eagle [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:39 am ]
Post subject: 
Andaroo,

I am going to have to strongly disagree with you.

I think recently we have seen that no time soon will gay marriage be legalized. I personally dont EVER see it happening.

I think the road we are heading down is one of equal protection under the law for gay couples via civil unions. But I dont ever think marriage will be legal for homosexual couples.

KJ
Author:  lovemerox [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Eagle wrote:
Andaroo,

I am going to have to strongly disagree with you.

I think recently we have seen that no time soon will gay marriage be legalized. I personally dont EVER see it happening.

I think the road we are heading down is one of equal protection under the law for gay couples via civil unions. But I dont ever think marriage will be legal for homosexual couples.

KJ



Why not?
Author:  Eagle [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:49 am ]
Post subject: 
Because the pulse of this country is strongly against it.

For good or bad, homosexuality goes against the moral values that alot of americans hold dear. A great majority of religions preach that it is a sin, wrong, and will fight till they can fight no more against gay marriage.

Because of this, and the supreme court justices that Bush will likly appoint, gay marriage just doesnt seem likley in my lifetime.

But at the same time if gay couples have equal protection under the law that married couples have (and they should) then I believe civil unions could become the answer.

KJ
Author:  STEVE ROGERS [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Eagle wrote:
Andaroo,

I am going to have to strongly disagree with you.

I think recently we have seen that no time soon will gay marriage be legalized. I personally dont EVER see it happening.

I think the road we are heading down is one of equal protection under the law for gay couples via civil unions. But I dont ever think marriage will be legal for homosexual couples.

KJ


This is probably not going to go over very well with some posters here who are into the whole "Gay Rights" issue, but based on how I was raised religiously speaking, Homosexuality is a complete and utter total Abomination of the worst fucking kind and in no way did God put Man in this world to fuck Man in the ass.. No way.. Man and Women were put in this world to pro-create and bear offsprings and to continue the process on and on in populating the world.. I'm sorry and like I said, I'll probably be lynched for saying this, but I don't give a fuck.. Homosexuality is just flat out WRONG and Gay Marriage will never, ever be passed.. Sorry..
Author:  Eagle [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:28 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
This is probably not going to go over very well with some posters here who are into the whole "Gay Rights" issue, but based on how I was raised religiously speaking, Homosexuality is a complete and utter total Abomination of the worst fucking kind and in no way did God put Man in this world to fuck Man in the ass.. No way.. Man and Women were put in this world to pro-create and bear offsprings and to continue the process on and on in populating the world.. I'm sorry and like I said, I'll probably be lynched for saying this, but I don't give a fuck.. Homosexuality is just flat out WRONG and Gay Marriage will never, ever be passed.. Sorry..


Well BKB,

You see the thing is, I can understand your point of view, and it is one that I feel is an opinion the majority of americans would agree with you on.

But see the thing is, I too am cathlioc, and it is against my religion. Thus I grew up learning that it was wrong and so forth. I myself am not gay, and would not consider ever becoming gay, simply because I am not attracted to other men.

However from the people I have met throughout my life, I have in a way come to the conclusion that it is just idiotic to hold people at arms length because of something like homosexuality. I am fairly certain that jesus would not bash homosexuality or in any way promote hate. His teachings promote understanding and tolerance. Because of that I think it is only fair to let everyone choose there own path in life. I know that I don't want anyone to tell me how to live my life, and I want to be free to make the decisions that I choose.

Thus I can only give that same respect that I covet, to others. I may not agree with it, and I know I am not interested in it personally, but at the same time a homosexual has every right to be protected under the law in the same fasion that anyone else does.

KJ
Author:  xXVincentxX [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:29 am ]
Post subject: 
BKB_The_Man wrote:
Eagle wrote:
Andaroo,

I am going to have to strongly disagree with you.

I think recently we have seen that no time soon will gay marriage be legalized. I personally dont EVER see it happening.

I think the road we are heading down is one of equal protection under the law for gay couples via civil unions. But I dont ever think marriage will be legal for homosexual couples.

KJ


This is probably not going to go over very well with some posters here who are into the whole "Gay Rights" issue, but based on how I was raised religiously speaking, Homosexuality is a complete and utter total Abomination of the worst fucking kind and in no way did God put Man in this world to fuck Man in the ass.. No way.. Man and Women were put in this world to pro-create and bear offsprings and to continue the process on and on in populating the world.. I'm sorry and like I said, I'll probably be lynched for saying this, but I don't give a fuck.. Homosexuality is just flat out WRONG and Gay Marriage will never, ever be passed.. Sorry..


Ignorance is bliss....
Author:  dolcevita [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:32 am ]
Post subject: 
@BKB...Well, if one is going to argue that being with someone is just about reproduction and popping out babies, than I guess it would be fair to say that impotent men and barren women are *wrong* too. Perhaps we should relegate them to being sinners too, since I guess they've broken Abraham's covenant with God? And conversely, what if the gay couple, just as a straight couple who can't conceive, adopted a kid? Then they would be assisting in the regeneration and perpetuation of the species?

@Eagle...Do you think the "pulse" of the country is really against queer eye or will and grace? Not really, more likely they are just grasping at structures such as the sanctity of marriage that are already starting to crumble. Domestic violence? Divorce rate? The concept of empowering an institution's ideals through exclusion is only going to work for so long. If someone else can't have it, it must be sacred right? Wrong, Christianity was originally very agressive in recruiting any and everyone or it wouldn't have even beat out Mithraism. Why do you think it was all about taking in the poor and sick and degected, etc. Its all nice to feel ontop of the world now, and think that you can start denying entrance. Someone else will pick them up, and eventually overpower. So its in the Church's best interest to try and work with this.

What I'm dealing here with is not the church however, or if being a homosexual is wrong, as Andaroo said. They're here to stay like it or not. Its how this new, once ostrasized group is being incorporated into the politic-financial system through being rejected. Its dirty. Its like well...we won't give you civil union privledges under the law, but hey, if you endorse our economic policy, we'll still won't give you civil union, but we'll let you well, endorse our economic policy.

That way we win doubly. You have propped up our concept of social security, and you're still not gonna get protection under the law. Just financial protection under our now private systems that the law doesn't need dip its fingers into. I dunno...
Author:  lovemerox [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:36 am ]
Post subject: 
Eagle wrote:
Quote:
This is probably not going to go over very well with some posters here who are into the whole "Gay Rights" issue, but based on how I was raised religiously speaking, Homosexuality is a complete and utter total Abomination of the worst fucking kind and in no way did God put Man in this world to fuck Man in the ass.. No way.. Man and Women were put in this world to pro-create and bear offsprings and to continue the process on and on in populating the world.. I'm sorry and like I said, I'll probably be lynched for saying this, but I don't give a fuck.. Homosexuality is just flat out WRONG and Gay Marriage will never, ever be passed.. Sorry..


Well BKB,

You see the thing is, I can understand your point of view, and it is one that I feel is an opinion the majority of americans would agree with you on.

But see the thing is, I too am cathlioc, and it is against my religion. Thus I grew up learning that it was wrong and so forth. I myself am not gay, and would not consider ever becoming gay, simply because I am not attracted to other men.

However from the people I have met throughout my life, I have in a way come to the conclusion that it is just idiotic to hold people at arms length because of something like homosexuality. I am fairly certain that jesus would not bash homosexuality or in any way promote hate. His teachings promote understanding and tolerance. Because of that I think it is only fair to let everyone choose there own path in life. I know that I don't want anyone to tell me how to live my life, and I want to be free to make the decisions that I choose.

Thus I can only give that same respect that I covet, to others. I may not agree with it, and I know I am not interested in it personally, but at the same time a homosexual has every right to be protected under the law in the same fasion that anyone else does.

KJ



Well said eagle


Now, BKB, I could not disagre more with you. You are assuming that everyone is Christian, or has some sort of religion to base their opinions and values on...which is not true. Just because your religion thinks its a sin, as does mine which is christianity, does not mean EVERYONE thinks its wrong.
I assume you uphold all of your religions morals and values? Like loving thy neighbor?(Your sig dosent show that very well) Do you not covet? Do you not Lust? Do you get your hair cut on saturdays? Are you around women during their menstral uncleanliness?
If the only purpose for sex was to have offspring than I assume you are against any type of birth control? Pre-marital sex? Masterbation? Your comments are very "UN-PC" and could offend some gay posters on this board as well as those who are straight(like myself)
Until you learn that religion and personal morals do not apply to eveyone then it is no good trying to debate this with you...
Author:  lovemerox [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:37 am ]
Post subject: 
Should we outlaw masterbation as well since its a sin? How about lusting after a hot man/women in the streets....
Author:  Eagle [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:37 am ]
Post subject: 
Dolce,

Yes I really do think the majority of the US is against gay marriage. Will and Grace is a TV show, and I don't think it's popularity accuratly reflects the pulse of a nation.

But I do agree that the protection under civil unions needs to be fixed. In my point of view, to exclude gay's from the protection others recieve is just as bad as segregation.

But that said I still dont see Gay Marriage coming to pass.

KJ
Author:  lovemerox [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:39 am ]
Post subject: 
Eagle wrote:
Dolce,

Yes I really do think the majority of the US is against gay marriage. Will and Grace is a TV show, and I don't think it's popularity accuratly reflects the pulse of a nation.

But I do agree that the protection under civil unions needs to be fixed. In my point of view, to exclude gay's from the protection others recieve is just as bad as segregation.

But that said I still dont see Gay Marriage coming to pass.

KJ


I t hink its just the word "marriage" that scares people
Author:  dolcevita [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Eagle wrote:
Dolce,

Yes I really do think the majority of the US is against gay marriage. Will and Grace is a TV show, and I don't think it's popularity accuratly reflects the pulse of a nation.

But I do agree that the protection under civil unions needs to be fixed. In my point of view, to exclude gay's from the protection others recieve is just as bad as segregation.

But that said I still dont see Gay Marriage coming to pass.

KJ


Ok. I know we see differently on what it means to legislate that, but how do you feel about it being extended to them under social security privatization? I mean, it seems like a bit of a trick. Not in the "you're and idiot and we'll play it," sort of way, but more in this long-term recruitment of lifestyles. I disagree on Will and Grace not so much because of Gay elements, but that its pretty clean, aren't they hi paid professionals, with nice clean apartments, etc? That's what makes it palatable to the main public. I just feel like this is a sly way of politicians to sneak their agenda through under a context of caring when they don't.

Like "Well I'm sorry you were in a car accident. Your health care coverage doesn't cover rehab, but if you sign on the dotted line here, and promise to support our new company, than we'll give it to you now."
Author:  lovemerox [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:53 am ]
Post subject: 
arggg!!!

Im just sitting here thinking and I had like a whole page response written out, when I ask myself? Why the fuck does this matter? Why is this country sooooooooooooo obsessed with whether your black, white, gay, straight. Does it really matter if a man has sex with a man!! Or a women has sex with a women... I mean cmon, think of it and it really is ludacris. Its ridiculous.
Author:  Eagle [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:55 am ]
Post subject: 
I think right now gay leadership in america is scared shitless.

I think the election and the 11 (was it 11?) constitutional ammendments that were passed scared the hell out of them. Bush won, which kills there supreme court chances, and then the american public harsly sided against gay marriage.

Because of all this i think that they are scrambling to get anything they can, thus they have latched themselves to republicans and are essentially saying they will support privitization of SS if they can get something out of it.

I dont know what it is going to take to get gay couples equal protection under the law, but I do know that one thing gay america should NOT do is settle for something less than what the constitution promotes and that is equality.

KJ
Author:  lovemerox [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:58 am ]
Post subject: 
Eagle wrote:
I think right now gay leadership in america is scared shitless.

I think the election and the 11 (was it 11?) constitutional ammendments that were passed scared the hell out of them. Bush won, which kills there supreme court chances, and then the american public harsly sided against gay marriage.

Because of all this i think that they are scrambling to get anything they can, thus they have latched themselves to republicans and are essentially saying they will support privitization of SS if they can get something out of it.

I dont know what it is going to take to get gay couples equal protection under the law, but I do know that one thing gay america should NOT do is settle for something less than what the constitution promotes and that is equality.

KJ



I agree, I made a point about that in a previous post. They should not "settle" for anything less than what they are promised in the constitution. However until we stop letting Religion take precedent over rights....it wont happen
Author:  Eagle [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Well you have to understand LMX,

Alot of people feel that gay couples are making a mockery of their religions and defacing the sacrament by doing something that is specificly forbidden by their religion.

Americans tend to be very naturalistic people, and that translates to all aspects of life. They are passionate and defensive of there sports teams, and they are protective of their beliefs. If they feel threatened they will fight.

I don't think that people want to deny rights to gay couples, rather just want to protect what they feel is theirs. I am a strong believer that civil unions are the solution to this whole issue.

KJ
Author:  STEVE ROGERS [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:26 am ]
Post subject: 
I'll tell you what" I'm willing to put $$$ on the fact theat the day I die and pass on into the after-life and become judged, I'd be willing to bet that a person who masterbates in the privacy of their home will be a hell of alot more tolerated than Man fucking Man in the ass, ignorance or not.. I'm sorry but once again, Homosexuality is just flat out ABNORMAL and I'm not shy about saying it or offending anyone as such because of it.. No way.. More importantly is the fact that the few on this board who claim there homsexual prompts me to wonder:

A: How old are you that at such an early point in your life caused you to head down this road and why??? Did a Man or Woman somehow abuse you in life that forced you to bat for the other team or what??? There HAS to be a reason WHY you chose this path unless teens in this day and age are so hung up on the freedom kick that they do so because it goes against the grain of what has been traditional all along??? I'd be anxious to hear where your parents went wrong with you causing you to do such...
Author:  lovemerox [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:30 am ]
Post subject: 
BKB_The_Man wrote:
I'll tell you what" I'm willing to put $$$ on the fact theat the day I die and pass on into the after-life and become judged, I'd be willing to bet that a person who masterbates in the privacy of their home will be a hell of alot more tolerated than Man fucking Man in the ass, ignorance or not.. I'm sorry but once again, Homosexuality is just flat out ABNORMAL and I'm not shy about saying it or offending anyone as such because of it.. No way.. More importantly is the fact that the few on this board who claim there homsexual prompts me to wonder:

A: How old are you that at such an early point in your life caused you to head down this road and why??? Did a Man or Woman somehow abuse you in life that forced you to bat for the other team or what??? There HAS to be a reason WHY you chose this path unless teens in this day and age are so hung up on the freedom kick that they do so because it goes against the grain of what has been traditional all along??? I'd be anxious to hear where your parents went wrong with you causing you to do such...



Wow...Are you serious? You think you need to be molested in order to be gay? Obviously you have some sort of complex with gay males, bc you are only refering to them. Did you CHOOSE to be hetero?
Parents went wrong? :lol: :lol:
Wow BKB, I am shocked you feel this way...really I am
Author:  lovemerox [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:32 am ]
Post subject: 
BKB_The_Man wrote:
I'll tell you what" I'm willing to put $$$ on the fact theat the day I die and pass on into the after-life and become judged, I'd be willing to bet that a person who masterbates in the privacy of their home will be a hell of alot more tolerated than Man fucking Man in the ass, ignorance or not.. I'm sorry but once again, Homosexuality is just flat out ABNORMAL and I'm not shy about saying it or offending anyone as such because of it.. No way.. More importantly is the fact that the few on this board who claim there homsexual prompts me to wonder:

A: How old are you that at such an early point in your life caused you to head down this road and why??? Did a Man or Woman somehow abuse you in life that forced you to bat for the other team or what??? There HAS to be a reason WHY you chose this path unless teens in this day and age are so hung up on the freedom kick that they do so because it goes against the grain of what has been traditional all along??? I'd be anxious to hear where your parents went wrong with you causing you to do such...



Also, we get the point that your not shy...and that your "man enough" to give your opinion... :roll:
Author:  Eagle [ Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:37 am ]
Post subject: 
Heh,

BKB I know a few gay males personally, and they were never molested or anything of the sort.

Question for you BKB:

A) do you like reading?

B) have you ever read The Mysteries of Pittsburgh?

I think that is a really good book to go along with this whole line of conversation.

It is too bad BKB that you are not more open to better understanding something you know so little about, but at the same time you are entitled to your opinion. It takes a strong man or woman to turn the other cheek and respect the person hitting you, yet another brilliant teaching of Jesus.

BKB I really respect you for offering your opinion, regardless of what it is, and I hope you will try to read and understand where some of us are coming from in response.

:Respect:

KJ
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